Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:49 am

I think Mr Krauthammer explains it well:
http://townhall.com/columnists/charlesk ... s_left_off

Historik, I agree with a lot of what you say in terms of what the OHV recreationists should be working on. I've instructed a few OHV users on the proper places and manner in which to behave around others when on their OHV. Sometimes, it's gotten me some disdainful looks, but it does serve to educate. But I reject 100% the idea that we must be perfect before our message is valid. We will be 100% perfect in our lawful riding when environmentalists are 100% perfect in avoiding destroying our heritage of liberty and in the public's right to determine what will happen on its own lands. Which is never. Giving up one single right until we are perfect is no way to approach this, and allowing environmentalist radicals to define the terms of our surrender any longer is not going to happen. That is precisely what has resulted in the loss of millions of acres of access. We have been so ashamed of the 3% of illegal riders that we've been bashful about fighting for our own rights. In the process, we give up our rights one bite at a time in a collective effort to feel better about ourselves. We have a right to do what we're doing, and we have a right to do it on more lands than are currently legal today, and should be fighting to re-open those areas closed by arbitrary bureaucratic fiat.

I realize Sal will attempt to twist this into an advocacy for some right to ride illegally. That's not at all what I mean, Sal, and you are fully aware. Sometimes, there is a difference between what is right and what is legal. Doesn't mean we should break the law to reclaim rights. That's how the political left does it. It's not how law-abiding people do it. If we don't like the law, we seek to change the law first.

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:30 am

Here is also one from one Vaclav Claus, economist and President of the Czech Repulic: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9deb730a-19ca ... z1KGWNGz4Q

This one is interesting, too, citing Patrick Moore, a founder of Greenpeace:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _19969858/
As Moore sees it, the composition of Greenpeace has changed dramatically since his heyday. He says the fall of communism brought an influx of anti-corporate extremism to the environmental movement because, "suddenly, the international peace movement had a lot less to do. Pro-Soviet groups in the West were discredited. Many of their members moved into the environmental movement, bringing with them their eco-Marxism and pro-Sandinista sentiments.

"A lot of those in the peace movement were anti-American and, to an extent, pro-Soviet. By virtue of their anti-Americanism, they tended to sometimes favor the communist approach. A lot of those people, a lot of those social activists, moved into the environmental movement once the peace movement was no longer relevant." Social activists, he suggests, "are now using the rhetoric of environmentalism to promote other collectivist agendas, such as class struggle -- which I personally believe is a legitimate area, but I don't believe it's legitimate to mix it up with environmentalism."
So, environmentalists themselves are admitting that their movement is now run by collectivists and new-world-order types. No wonder there is antipathy to traditional notions of individual liberty, personal responsibility, and limited government within the environmental movement. There is a wide red streak in today's green movement.

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:47 am

LOL!

Environmentalism: Where Earth Day means a recommitment to keeping tens of trillions of dollars in wealth locked up and buried for decades to come, while destroying society's current ability to pay what it already owes our children and grandchildren.

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by spiny » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:28 am

Dan,

Happy Earthday, tovarich!

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by historik951 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 10:11 pm

Dan,
By no means did I want to say that the off roading community MUST be PERFECT...... What I was trying to get across is that the off roaders have to do something about illegal riding. The treehuggers keep pointing to these people as if they are the majority. So the off roaders have to take that element away, but not be or try to be perfect. Rather, educate the other side and get them to understand what the masses are truly about. If the illegal off roaders knew that even their own kind wouldn't tolerate their behavior, it may send a clear message. It will also get a ton of people angry, but sometimes hard choices have to be made. If someone with treehugger authority said that they would open all closed area's to all LEGAL off roaders. How would you be able to separate the two ??? and if the treehuggers said that if any ILLEGAL off roader was caught doing anything wrong ( like not staying on the trail etc... ) they would shut everything down. So here it is, you finally get what you have wanted after all these years, only to possibly lose it because someone does something wrong. Now how would you and every other solid off roader take to the illegals doing what they feel is their " right "..... Maybe they still feel angry because of all the years of being locked out of the lands. Maybe they just hate authority, the reason doesn't matter, the big story is the community as a whole loses..... Now, if the majority of off roaders took this stance now and told these people that enough is enough and did what they could to stop illegal off roading, that would be taking a stance.... That would be the right thing to do.... and sometimes doing the right thing is very hard for some people to accept, especially if they are part of the Illegal crowd..... It would be a tough fight, but sooner or later it's going to have to be done.....

H

Dan
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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Dan » Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:37 am

historik951 wrote:Dan,
By no means did I want to say that the off roading community MUST be PERFECT...... What I was trying to get across is that the off roaders have to do something about illegal riding. The treehuggers keep pointing to these people as if they are the majority. So the off roaders have to take that element away, but not be or try to be perfect. Rather, educate the other side and get them to understand what the masses are truly about. If the illegal off roaders knew that even their own kind wouldn't tolerate their behavior, it may send a clear message. It will also get a ton of people angry, but sometimes hard choices have to be made. If someone with treehugger authority said that they would open all closed area's to all LEGAL off roaders. How would you be able to separate the two ??? and if the treehuggers said that if any ILLEGAL off roader was caught doing anything wrong ( like not staying on the trail etc... ) they would shut everything down. So here it is, you finally get what you have wanted after all these years, only to possibly lose it because someone does something wrong. Now how would you and every other solid off roader take to the illegals doing what they feel is their " right "..... Maybe they still feel angry because of all the years of being locked out of the lands. Maybe they just hate authority, the reason doesn't matter, the big story is the community as a whole loses..... Now, if the majority of off roaders took this stance now and told these people that enough is enough and did what they could to stop illegal off roading, that would be taking a stance.... That would be the right thing to do.... and sometimes doing the right thing is very hard for some people to accept, especially if they are part of the Illegal crowd..... It would be a tough fight, but sooner or later it's going to have to be done.....

H
Oh, I'm with you. Didn't mean to infer that you were demanding 100% compliance. The environmental groups are the ones demanding something even they themselves cannot possibly deliver. Influencing group behavior is a lot like herding cats. It's just impossible to get exactly what you want. I simply reject the notion that any non-compliance should result in a loss of rights and access. We don't catch every speeder on the freeway, either. But it doesn't result in loss of use for those who are actually compliant with the rules. There is already somewhat of a sigma attached with riding illegally. For the most part, most illegal riders I've heard about are defiant. It's a very small percentage. It's about the same percentage who ride ignorantly on closed trails or in areas which have no legal OHV use. I was hunting in the Mojave National Preserve last year when some guys showed up in their Polaris Ranger. We told them it was illegal anywhere in the Preserve, and they took it back and parked it. While we were hunting, the ranger showed up at their camp and told them the same thing. They replied to the ranger that they didnt' know it was illegal before, but parked it when we explained it to them. Seems sort of stupid. I mean, they were only on the road, where you can drive a 6500 lb 4X4 pickup, but you can't drive a 1100 lb Rhino or Ranger. The pickup truck does far more of what Sal calls "damage". Yet the vehicle which does less damage is banned. Go figure. Unintended consequences of government-forced rules and regulations. We deal with such stupidity every day.

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by historik951 » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:09 pm

Hi Dan,
Most likely it's the " stigma " or reputation of the quads.... There are quite a few illegal off roaders that use quads, so it's easier just to make ALL use of quads illegal.... On the road you were talking about not in general... The idea of off roaders trying to tell others what to do would be a HUGE ordeal for the OHV'rs to take on though. And I agree as well, just because someone does something wrong ( unintentionally ) they should not lose everything they worked for. However, repeat abusers should lose something of value that would also not let them offend again and again.... Like maybe their quads or bikes etc..... I know some people are going to think that this is extreme but remember this is for repeated offenses... Like when you get caught speeding, do it enough times and you lose your license. Drive without a license, lose your car and go to jail, especially if you are driving drunk....

H

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Brew » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:39 am

I wonder if there are any statistics showing the number of REPEAT OHV convictions. Maybe getting convicted once is enough to change the behavior.

Brew

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by historik951 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:16 am

Brew wrote:I wonder if there are any statistics showing the number of REPEAT OHV convictions. Maybe getting convicted once is enough to change the behavior.

Brew
If that was true, I think we would see a lot less illegal riding..... Even the guy who by court order had to make a video saying illegal riding was wrong, said he made the video just to get out of a big fine. He even said it would not stop him from ridding illegal again... If you take away the vehicle then they can't ride and if the " borrow " someone else vehicle and get caught that one is taken too... This is extreme and I know someone is going to go crazy about this but, this is only for repeat offenders and it's only for those that ride illegally. If you ride in legal areas then you have no worries..... If you get written permission to ride you have no worries.... If you don't, then you would have worries....

H

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Re: Enviromentalist vs Offroaders......

Post by Desertroad » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:31 pm

Happy Earth Day, Tovarich!

Jeeze that was funny.

I'm still reeling from those Dish Network Russian-guy ads...pure disgraceful capitalist humor!

http://www.dish-television.com/2010/08/ ... ommercial/

As an old Cold_Warrior (active duty April 1977 to April 1980), the whole debate about the Sovietization (a term I made up) of contemporary American society really warm me to the bone of my proletariat soul. We are all being taken in by big capitalist plot! But is fun, no? Americanskis have beeg cocaine party riding gas-guzzling ATV's over people's desert land wearing Disney Mouse-Comrade riding jerseys! Is decadent, like Man-Burning Hippy ritual, which is secret testing for KGB LSD experiments! Ees all part of plot for global domination of Party Line.

Or something...

See you all in Siberia for Comrade Polar-Mint 400!

Desert Comrade of Road

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