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Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:24 pm
by Dan
This is one problem we have. One rider's unwillingness to actively oppose one proposal is interpreted as support for that proposal, or others like it. Never said I supported large plates, Sal. I'm just unwilling to oppose one proposal that is strictly limited to existing plates and places on vehicles. This is much how "studies" and "polls" become flawed. Questions are vague and misinterpreted by respondents, and their responses are misinterpreted by those posing or creating the questions. Or worse yet, when they are designed from the ground up to mislead the public and policy-makers. You seem to misinterpret many things, Sal.

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:53 pm
by Sal
Dan wrote:You seem to misinterpret many things, Sal.
that may be..I'm only human.

However, I don't misinterpret the riders' advocates on this board. With the exception of Historik, all the of people on the OHV side--
Dan, MMM, Stanley, Brew. desertfox. etc--refuse to acknowledge the damage to the environment, nuisance to others and the degree to which illegal OHV riding is occurring.

It's YOUR recreation and something will be done to further constrain it.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but the resistance to illegal and unsustainable OHV use is mounting and actually snowballing as we speak. Organized OHV events will soon need to charge riders for their share of insurance and ranger time. Within the West Mojave (outside of the OPEN areas), all riding must be done on routes signed OPEN and the entrances to riding areas must have a kiosk with maps indicating where legal routes are located. All other riding is illegal and stronger efforts at enforcement will be forthcoming.

You can rant all day long here on DUSA and engage in name calling, propagandizing, denial and whatever flavor of silencing the messenger is popular today. Yet, if you would try to save some opportunities for sane motorized touring, you would support some common sense initiatives like the large plate idea

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm
by MMM
sal, once again please indicate one group that advocates the use of larger plates as a means of stoping or slowing down the ever present desire to close more and public lands to OHV use.


Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:20 am
by Sal

Seattle April 26, 2011

A group of environmental organizations including the Sierra club, Wilderness Society, Center for Biological Diversity and Izaak Walton League have banded together under a new umbrella organization called the Large Plate Group.

The new coalition listed a number of goals, the most prominent of which was the advocacy for large license plates for off-road vehicles. In a statement released to the press the group iterated:

"We the undersigned would like to go on record as saying that if it can be shown that off-road vehicle use can be managed to use only the areas and designated routes approved by federal, state and local govenments, we will stop all attempts to protect lands from further classification as wilderness and will be content with the approved network. If any other wilderness advocacy groups attempt to influence legislation to protect lands from extractive uses, agricultural clearing, logging or off-road use, we will oppose the attempts and intervene to protect the rights of off-roaders to ride the approved network".

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:32 am
by Brew
Sal, do you have a link to that statement? It doesn't show up on the Center for Biological Diversity site....yet.
Please note that it only mentions not advocating more wilderness areas, but no mention of closing areas to OHV use for species protection.

edit: After posting the above, I went out and was tilling compost into my vegie garden and my BS detector kept going off. Sal, shouldn't you sign your own work?


Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:49 am
by Dan
With that statement, anything less than 100% compliance can be justification for ignoring their own words. It's lawyers talking for the mob, using language that gives plenty of wiggle room for recant of the promise. We've fallen for similar stuff in the past. Not taking the bait any more. What's the penalty for simply breaking the promise? There is none.

No sale.

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:28 pm
by Sal
Tovarich wrote:What's the penalty for simply breaking the promise? There is none
same as the penalty for trespassing on an unidentifiable vehicle with a mask over your face.

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:49 pm
by Sal
Tovarich Dan wrote:Just out of curiosity, Sal. We don't need to know where you live. But before you lived there, were OHVs present in the area, within earshot??? Or are they a very recent addition to the area?

here's the timeline:

50,000-20,000 BP Mojave desert alive with megafauna

20,000 BP-1500 AD Amerinds occupy Mojave desert. No wheels. No horses. Travois pulled by dogs.

1500-1800 AD beginnings of European occupation of Mojave desert. Some horse drawn wagons and horse drawn travois.

1800-1920 more intensive use of horses and metal wheels and machines to dig wells and plow the land in Mojave desert. Railroads tie population centers together.

1920-1950 AD motor vehicles used in Mojave desert. Sal's great- grandfather homesteads 80 acres, digs a well and grazes livestock.

1950-1970 AD first use of motorized scooters, dune buggies and motorcycles for recreation in Mojave desert. Very limited use. Riders steer clear of occupied lands like Sal's family homestead.

1970-1990 OHV riding becomes a problem in Mojave desert. Laws are passed limiting new trails to inventoried routes.

1990-2000 OHV routes outside of OPEN area are limited to travel on "existing routes". Riders continue to make new trails. The second rider is riding an "exisiting route".

2000-2011 OHV routes on public lands outside of OPEN areas limited to trails signed "OPEN route". All other routes are closed. Riders continue to use non approved routes and to pioneer in new routes even across occupied private lands. Riders steal "No Trespassing" sign from in front of Sal's driveway.

2012-2020 AD a new day in cooperation between riders and private property owners. Riders must display large ID and are held responsible for all laws broken by their vehicle. Speed limits outside of OPEN areas reduced to 15 mph. Tortoise begins to make a comeback. Desert blooms with low-impact recreation. People painting, birdwatching, taking pictures, sightseeing on 40db vehicles.

Tovarich Dan comes to Sal's homestead for a barbecue and Sal beats him at chess, but Dan beats Sal at arm-wrestling.

Re: Article recently released about Off-Road Vehicles

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:18 pm
by MMM
sal can you provide a link to the big plate group. I did a google search and found nothing and the groups you list also have zero posted on their web sites about it.