Federal Requirements applicable to Wilderness Areas

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sentinel
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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by sentinel » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:53 pm

Folks should keep in mind as well that a few of us like to stash gear and use camps on an irregular basis. Those spots can be a lifesaver to many of us and theres nothing worse than to find your cans of chili gone or even worse the can opener!!!!!

I know of a number of cache sites and share mine within a tight circle so anyone who gets in a bind knows where theres some food, water and shelter. We quit burying ours cause Randy never can find them again!

Nothing worse than being out of water and watching him dig holes all over the place!

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by LDMGOLD » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:00 am

Yes, in the late 1950's I use to stock a hidden camp with food in the mountain. This would help when we were working stock in some of the more remote areas. Today the wilderness status of the area make it illegal to stock a hidden camp according to regulations. Yes, I know people still do it. I was in horseback the other day with Jesse Feldman. We found old paint markings on rocks probably dating back to the 50's and 60's. There are several old hidden camps back in the mountains. I am sure when the wilderness rangers find one of them they remove it from the wilderness. There was a time when I thought nobody checked the remote areas of the wilderness, but that is not true anymore. This past year I have came across three hidden camps within a short walking distance of First Water. This is also true of the Peter's Trail Head at the end of the Tortilla Corridor. I am sure you can rest assured the Search & Rescue groups are not going to pack your camps out or destroy them. Their only goal is finding Jesse Capen in hopes of bringing resolve to his family. Take care and be safe. Tom Kollenborn

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by hikin_jim » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:38 am

LDMGOLD wrote:Today the wilderness status of the area make it illegal to stock a hidden camp according to regulations.
Tom,

Do you have any specifics that you could point me to on that? Caching, particularly water, is a pretty standard practice among hikers, backpackers, etc. I've never heard that it was prohibited. I'm curious what the specific regulations might be in a wilderness.

Thanks,

HJ

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by LDMGOLD » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:08 am

Jim:

I don't recall the exact erg that applies to leaving any thing in the wilderness. I would like to think common sense would apply to caching water when hiking in the mountain. I would call the district ranger's office in Mesa to get specific information on the topic. There is a fourteen day camping rule for the area within the wilderness. All no-trace rules apply to camping. I am not sure whether you can leave a camp for a week and return. In some areas I know you can do it. I believe you are restricted to one night out of camp, but I could be wrong so don't quote me. It is best to contact the ranger district and check on the ergs. Take care Jim.

Tom K.

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by hikin_jim » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:04 pm

OK, thanks, Tom.

HJ

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by LDMGOLD » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:48 pm

JIM:

I did call the Tonto Ranger District. What you take into the wilderness your should bring out. Actually there is no exceptions to that regulation. I think caching water is a case of common sense. When you come out don't leave your plastic bottles. In recent years I have found several plastic bottle along the trails where people have drained them and left them. The rule about camps is fourteen days and your allowed to leave your camp for twenty-four hours and return. If that is not the case you most remove your camp according to regulation. In other words, what you take in you must take out at that time. I am not going to debate the topic. When the forest rangers find an abandoned camp they will removed it from the wilderness. So don't plan on it being there. I knew one old timer who always buried his camp when he left the mountains. He would leave Coleman stoves, lanterns and fuel. He would wrap them in plastic tarps and bury them in a wash. I agree, there are a lot of hidden camps and buried camps in the wilderness that still remain undiscovered. Robert Jacob buried several cases of dynamite, two or three coils of primer cord and caps near his camp on Peter's Mesa. Be careful digging around in his Peter's Mesa Camp. You could become a statistic. We need to abandon this line of discussion on this file. This file is to discuss the search for Jesse Capen. Hopefully somebody will turn up some clues on Jesse Capen this winter or spring.

Tom Kollenborn

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Re: Colorado Man "Goes Missing" in the Superstition Mountain

Post by hikin_jim » Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:09 pm

Tom,

Thank you for the information.
LDMGOLD wrote:We need to abandon this line of discussion on this file. This file is to discuss the search for Jesse Capen. Hopefully somebody will turn up some clues on Jesse Capen this winter or spring.
Duly noted.

HJ

Jim Hatt

Federal Requirements applicable to Wilderness Areas

Post by Jim Hatt » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:42 pm

LDMGOLD wrote:JIM:

I did call the Tonto Ranger District. What you take into the wilderness your should bring out. Actually there is no exceptions to that regulation.

Tom Kollenborn
Tom,

I am very familiar with Federal Regulations from my decades of experience in the Nuclear Industry. (which is highly regulated by the Federal Government).

I can assure you that the word "SHOULD" is never used in a Federal Regulation, where no exceptions are allowed. A Federal Regulation requirement in that case always uses the word "SHALL"... So there is something seriously wrong with the answer that was provided to you. (or in the way you passed it on to us)

In a situation like this where someone is giving advice about Federal Requirements in the DUSA forums, it is highly appreciated when the person giving the advice, provides the name of the Regulation, Chapter, Paragraph and Section where the requirement comes from.
hikin_jim wrote:
LDMGOLD wrote:Today the wilderness status of the area make it illegal to stock a hidden camp according to regulations.
Tom,

Do you have any specifics that you could point me to on that? Caching, particularly water, is a pretty standard practice among hikers, backpackers, etc. I've never heard that it was prohibited. I'm curious what the specific regulations might be in a wilderness.

Thanks,

HJ

Getting back to H_J's original question...

Can you direct us to the "SPECIFIC" Regulation you are referring to, that covers the Federal Requirements we are discussing here?

If you can get the title of the "Reg" that your contacts at the Forest Service are referring to and quoting from, it should be no problem for one of us to get a copy of the actual regulations/requirements, and post them in this discussion.

Thanks,

Jim




Moderator Note:
Since I expect this discussion may grow into a long one, I am going to move it to it's own topic for discussing Federal regulations applicable to Wilderness Areas.

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Re: Federal Requirements applicable to Wilderness Areas

Post by cubfan64 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:59 am

I did some searching last night in the CFR's (code of federal regulations) and other laws and regulations I could find last night associated with the Superstition Wilderness and/or Tonto National Forest as well as BLM.

I can only read those things for so long before my eyes glaze over, but I could never find a specific regulation about littering - which at least in my mind would include leaving anything at all behind in the Superstition Mountains - whether it be garbage, or items cached for later recovery or emergency.

I did just a little reading on "Leave No Trace," and from the little I took the time to read, it seems to be as I expected that it's not a set of regulations and laws, but rather ethical guidelines and policies strongly suggested in order to minimize impact on nature.

Whether it's right or wrong I'm not going to offer my opinion because I think there are grey areas, but I think what some of us would like to know is in essence, could I get ticketed, fined or arrested for leaving "stuff" behind in the Superstition Mountains - and if so, what is the actual legal statute that law enforcement and the justice system would stand behind to prosecute?

Incidently, when one see's the "no littering" signs along the highway suggesting a $500 fine if one gets caught - is that a state or federal law and is it also "on the books?" Could that same law apply to Wilderness areas?

Jim Hatt

Re: Federal Requirements applicable to Wilderness Areas

Post by Jim Hatt » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:26 am

LDMGOLD wrote:Today the wilderness status of the area make it illegal to stock a hidden camp according to regulations.
Tom,
Paul,

I tried and could not find anything that appeared to be applicable either.

I think it would save us all a lot of time and headaches, if Tom would just specify which regulation he getting his information from, or get in touch with his contact at the Forest Service, and ask him to identify the applicable regulation that we can find that info in.

Best,

Jim.

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