"RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

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somehiker
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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:26 am

Homar:

Yes, I believe they are the same.
But are they copies of the originals, made by Travis Tumlinson and later sold to Mitchell ?
And all, or just some ?
The answers to these questions might be found someday in Travis' manuscript.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by coazon de oro » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:31 pm

somehiker wrote:Homar:

Yes, I believe they are the same.
But are they copies of the originals, made by Travis Tumlinson and later sold to Mitchell ?
And all, or just some ?
The answers to these questions might be found someday in Travis' manuscript.

Regards:Wayne
Howdy Wayne,

I don't believe Tumlinson made any replicas on the Stone Maps. He did make the Treasure Chest Stone, copying the letters from the Stone Maps, but any replicas would have surfaced. I do believe that what was in the cloth the size of a pillow case, was a set of drawings of the stone maps (if not the stones themselves). I believe this is what he used in his trips to the Superstitions, when he searched for the treasure.

The copy's that the museum had made in the 1980's, were cast, so it is hard to tell just by looking at pictures, just what you are looking at. However, if those black and white pictures were taken before 1980, they would be from the original stones IMHO.

Homar

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by coazon de oro » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:26 am

Howdy Wayne,

I forgot to tell you about the tape. Lee Hammons taped the original stone maps that had been donated to the museum by way of a court order. He did it to keep them like they had been photographed in "Superstition Treasures". Later they started to let people photograph them without the tapes. They did not have copies made until the 80's, this is when the originals went into a vault, and the copies displayed. Some copies were sold along with the cast forms.

I believe it is safe to say that the copies were never taped over, and that the black, and white pictures you posted, are those of the originals.

Homar

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Homar:

Hammon wrote to Bernice McGee on Dec. 16,1971.
In the letter he told her that she could view the stones "without tape" upon payment of the fee proscribed by the board of the Flagg Foundation.
As far as I know, the b/w photos of the stones on black cloth were taken in 1965.
While I can only say I suspect they were being held by the FBI in their Phoenix office at that same time, and that these were "evidence" photos, I'm certain there is at least one other person who knows for sure.
Richard Robinson used the same photos, but with lower resolution, in this article about his and Reyes solution.....http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/t ... eGate1.htm
I may be misinterpreting Hammons' statement in Dean's article that he taped the copies, since he does not mention "copies" in the article, but there are reasons I suspect there were two sets of stones in the AMMM by that time. One being the "without tape" offer.....meaning repeated application and removal of tape from the "original" stones ? Another being the "two hour" limit, suggesting the "originals" without tape were only to be viewed by patrons, not the public who would be present during open hours at the museum.

Regards:Wayne

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:30 am

One bit of evidence that the stones are not all the same.
Compare the "bracket", specifically where it ends at the horse's hindquarters.

From the hi-res B/W photo:

Image

Stone at the SSM:

Image

Life Magazine:

Image

And Mitchell's photo, used in "Superstition Treasures':

Image

And of course, there are also the differences visible in the "Bumper Photo", which has several inconsistencies with all of the others we do have photos of.

Image

Regards:SH.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by deducer » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:31 pm

For me, the most egregious difference that prove beyond a doubt that the copies are different than the original stones have to do with the peaks above the reversed D on the lower map.

If you look at the attached illustration where I have a side by side comparison of the stones on the bumper and the stones as they currently look. The leftmost peak is obviously much softer on the original rock and not as pronounced or exaggerated as it is on the copy. Also observe that the left line of the tallest peak continue right past where it meets the leftmost curved peak as pointed out by the red arrows. It does not do that on the original stone.

I took the largest still of the stones on the bumper that I could find on the internet and played with it in photoshop to produce the most contrast and clarity, and as you can see this caused a sideway cross (the leftmost arrow points right at it) and a "X" to show up below the peaks (at least, for me- as I previously did not see them). This does not show on the copied version on the right.

The heightened contrast which I came up with by toggling the RGB curves in photoshop produced a number of features on the original stones that are not on the copy.
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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:29 pm

deducer:

I would expect to see some differences in the the stone you used in the right hand photo.
It is one of the many replicas made after the stones became public. It is not the lower trail stone which has been misrepresented as original, which currently resides in the SMM. That one,as well as those in the B/W photos I've posted are about as close as we can get to the originals shown in the bumper photo, which makes them far better for comparison purposes.

Regards:SH.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by deducer » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:31 pm

Weren't those copies supposedly made from latex molds taken of the "originals" that were given to the museum?

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by somehiker » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:50 pm

Not all. I think some, including Jim's were made by hand, using photographs.
So some of the details may vary in exact positioning and composition.
With higher resolution photos now available, some slight variances can be seen between the original stone crosses and Jim's copies, for example. This helped me to reconcile at least two conflicts I had previously identified when trying to fit them into their relevant positions in the field.
Those replicas of the original stone maps, cast in the molds taken from the ones at the AMMM, also have flaws, as outlined in the bumper shot I previously posted.

Regards:SH.

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Re: "RESCUE ON BATTLEAXE ROAD" BY JIM HATT.....

Post by deducer » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:26 am

Now that you speak of it, I did notice a difference in the profile of the mountain depicted on each cross. It helps to know that one of them is a replica.

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