The "PERALTA STONE MAPS"

[djui5]

You indicated that both the stone crosses and Latin heart were found, AFTER Tumlinson found the stone tablets. This gives me an unsettleing feeling.

Why would that bother you? I don't understand. If the events took place as they were told to me, and repeated in my article. There is nothing illogical or difficult to understand. Is there?

Jim[/b]

Because someone could have heard about the stone maps and created the crosses/latin heart

[Jim Hatt]

Because someone could have heard about the stone maps and created the crosses/latin heart

djui,

I would expect that would be everyone's knee-jerk reaction (first thought). But an in depth study, of the actions of the people who claimed to have found them, tends to offset that thought. Both Bilbrey and the finder of the Latin Heart, invested years in trying to locate the landmarks on them before making them public. Same as Tumlinson did when he found the stone maps.

Bill Hidden knew the finder of the Latin Heart, and worked with him to solve it, using the paper copy he made before the original stone was destroyed. Bill continued the search on his own after that man died, and was still working on it in the 90's, with the man whose story I recorded, when he (Bill) died. People don't normally spend that many years chasing something without considering all the possibilities from every angle.

There is a lot of time to ponder the possibilities, on a cold evening, after the sun goes down out in the mountains, while warming your hands on a hot cup of coffee. The temptation to give in to the "gut-feelings" and give up the search is never greater than it is then. But something... Something keeps them coming back!

The faith they have in the credibility of their sources?
The things they have observed for themselves in the mountains?
Maybe something they observe in the stone artifacts themselves?

Whatever it is... It is stronger than the urge to dismiss them and give up on the search.

Of course none of this "PROVES" anything, but it does carry some weight, for off setting preliminary knee-jerk reactions and gut-feelings. Everyone that gets deep into the subject of the Superstition Mountains, believes there is "something" out there "somewhere".

To dismiss any potential clue, because of a "gut-feeling" or lack of proof of it's authenticity, is an individual choice. I would rather leave it in the "unknown" category until I actually hear the "Fat Lady" singing. There will be plenty of time to dismiss it then.

[lighthouse]

Hello Jim:
djui5 put into words why I have some misgivings. As the Latin heart & stone crosses were discovered years after the stone tablets (and the crosses were some distance from that site), it brings up the possibility that these could have been a copy cat at work.

The Latin heart symbols bear no resemblence to the artwork on the stone tablets. As this represents an anomaly, I see a relationship problem here.

I admit, if the stone tablets and Latin heart/stone crosses were produced during the same era, they should be very similiar in nature. My question is, are they DIRECTLY related to one another?

OK what language did the Jesuits employ? As they were a religious order they were familiar with Latin. As they would have been with a Spanish expedition, obviously they had to communicate in Spanish, and as Spain later expelled the order, well.....? As I originally said, the words and phraseology on the tablets did not originate from a well educated person, and the Jesuits were not illiterate bumpkins......

Since we currently do not know the exact composition of the stones, one must take a guess based on virsual appearances. Once we know their composition, then more educated assumptions can then be made.

Granted the odds of anything still being there are 50/50, but when you factor in the Indians, this lowers the odds.

The one question I still have is, exactly what is at the end of the dotted trail? Is it treasure, gold mines or what?

Don't get me wrong. My objective is to question everything, but NOT to discount everything, unless there is a clear indication that is the probable conclusion. In my first book I went on record that I consider the stone tablets to be a fake. Since then I have to admit, my conclusion was premature and there maybe a truth to it. I'm now trying to define that possible truth, through a realistic point of view... Lighthouse

[djui5]

Of course it's a knee jerk reaction, and is not one I share as I know the Tumlinson's kept the stone maps a secret for a long time before revealing anything to the public. Just wanted to clarify what I thought lighthouse was thinking. Shoulda said that

[djui5]

The one question I still have is, exactly what is at the end of the dotted trail? Is it treasure, gold mines or what?
Lighthouse

Could be a number of things and unless the map says what is there, and someone deciphers it then no-one will know. The only exception to that would be if someone figured out the maps and actually found a significant discovery at the end of the trail. By significant I'm talking about a super rich Gold mine, or a cache full of Gold bars/treasure/etc. It has yet to be done, or should I say it has yet to be publicized that it has been done.

[lighthouse]

Hello Jim:

I'm replying to your reply to djui5....

You forget that poeple have been searching for the LDM for some 100+ years, utilizing clues, many of which are suspect. So merely believing that something is true, doesn't make it true.

In essance "gut feelings" is THE motivating reason behind why we either search for or investigate the legend. Only when we run out of options, or fate intervenes, does this put an end to our quest.

But we can't be the blind men encountering the elephant either. We must employ our gut feelings so as to give us a path, method or course of action, to adopt in our search.

Realistically since none of the clues have led us to the LDM, ALL must be considered of unknown value.

So we do our searching, primarily through our gut feelings, not by the possible true or false information that has come down to us since the Dutchman died. This info only serves as a baseline reference. It is how we interpret it (gut feelings) that determines our course of action..... Lighthouse

[djui5]

Maybe so but you have to have a basis for your search. This comes from knowing how to sort out what clues are good, and what clues are not. Then you can narrow down an area to search in and use all the gut feelings you want.

That being said I've done a bit of hiking just following a gut feeling and it's let me to some neat places, like Jenkins lost ledge of Gold, etc.

[lighthouse]

Hello djui5:

Yes if someone finds something at the end of the dotted trail, this will answer the question once and for all.

The thing that bothers me is, what is actually there?

I'm no Spanish treasure symbol expert, so this maybe explained in those symbols. Otherwise it strikes me as very odd that the stones provide us with a map and esoteric clues, but nothing is said about what is at the end of that dotted trail. Is there a pot of gold that awaits us, or just a lot of dirt?.... Lighthouse

[Jim Hatt]

OK what language did the Jesuits employ? As they were a religious order they were familiar with Latin. As they would have been with a Spanish expedition, obviously they had to communicate in Spanish, and as Spain later expelled the order, well.....?

The one question I still have is, exactly what is at the end of the dotted trail? Is it treasure, gold mines or what?
Lighthouse

Good questions mike, all of them!

Wish I knew all the answers... I can tell you that Fr. Kino was Italian. Spanish and Latin were both second languages for him. If I remember correctly, he also spoke several other languages.

Being able to communicate in a second language is no guarantee, that you will not make mistakes in speaking or writing in it. Now that I am thinking about, I do not recall any Jesuits from that period being from Spain, and having Spanish as their first language.




There are many possibilities for what may be at the end of the stone map trail. Kenworthy had his theory, Jacobs had his, and Robinson had yet another. The list goes on and on. I have mine that was presented in the article I referred you to, which is way "out of the box" from all the rest.

I theorize that it is the point at which you remove the original heart insert from the heart cavity, and insert the Latin Heart. How did you miss that Mike?

There is no mine, cache or anything else at the end of the trail in my theory. It is just the point at which you quit working with the stone maps, and begin working with the landmarks on the Latin Heart.

It is necessary to place it into the heart cavity in order to read and understand both sides of it correctly. Doing so involves a lot of Geometry and Trigonometry. Things that were understood, and used, back as far as the time when the Pyramids were built.

Anyone that thinks they are going to follow the trail on the stone maps right to the end of the rainbow, does not have any kind of grasp on how smart the creators were, and how coded these maps really are!

To date... Rex Western is the only person I know of besides myself, that has come close to understanding what is written on the stone maps. As you may have noticed, he does not speak much, I am sure that he sometimes thinks that I speak too much!

And maybe I do!

But unlike Rex, I have little fear, that anyone is going to take anything I have written, and solve the stone maps. To do so will require more than just understanding, and being able to do the math on them.

Many years of walking the trails, and plotting out the things left behind by the Map Makers, (some of which have disappeared since I first started going out there 20 years ago, NOT BY MY HAND either) will be required before anyone can bring out the compass and calculator, and go to work.

No telling how many markers were destroyed before I ever came into the area, but from what I have been told by those who were active in the mountains way before me, there were many that no longer existed by the time I came along!

I have repeated myself over and over, that Nobody is going to solve the stone maps, using only the pieces found by Tumlinson, or by using Google Earth, or by sitting at their kitchen table and drawing lines on a Topo map.

Reverse Engineering, using all the pieces of the puzzle (IN THE FIELD) will be the only way they will ever be solved!

The question is... Are there enough pieces left for someone to be able to do it?

I live every day, in fear of the possibility, that so many have been destroyed, that nobody including myself, will ever be able to succeed.

Jim

[Jim Hatt]

That being said I've done a bit of hiking just following a gut feeling and it's let me to some neat places, like Jenkins lost ledge of Gold, etc.

Not the first time I have heard that djui!

I'm not saying you haven't, But I am not ready to accept that you have either.

I find it entirely possible that you may have. "Probable" even, if you have been "dogging" my trail.

Do you have any photos, or anything other than your opinion that you have?

Just thought I would ask before someone else did.

Jim