Jacob Weiser's Masonic Pin

[roc2rol]

I'm late to the mine party again guys !
and Jim you beat me to it
but here are my thoughts

Yo Mr. Oroblanco!
just to catch up

I know nothing certain about the Mason’s
because all that literature is a guessing game

but the story of the button is telling!
because, I assume, it certainly was told before Mason lore was the rage!
funny that Indians would be leery of it !
that certainly lends credence to some mystery & speculations


well what does a Masonic button look like?


what would make the Indians leery of it ???
Did any military personal wear them?
seems unlikely

a more thorough search to try an determine
how many they were in circulation?
esp. during mid 1800’s
& were any issued out of Germany?
those type of questions
all might prove enlightening

and where would you wear it?
isn’t that like advertising?
very peculiar

and yes you guys hold me accountable!
Because I can get way out there

I’m over read and under paid!
and that darn Templars literature is certainly a field of study
that’s left me guessing & hopefully educat~ed

[roc2rol]

[quote]"Upon his return to the mine, he found his partner, Jacob wiser, stripped naked and his new hickory shirt hanging on a bush near by with his Masonic pin sticking in it. " <page 5, most of the way down the page> [quote]

that's an intersting passage
why state so emphatically
'his new hickory shirt' ?
to establish the Indians
real advoidance of taking such an article?

or is some one trying to purposely point out the pin?

[oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Roc2rol wrote

"Upon his return to the mine, he found his partner, Jacob wiser, stripped naked and his new hickory shirt hanging on a bush near by with his Masonic pin sticking in it. " <page 5, most of the way down the page>

that's an intersting passage
why state so emphatically
'his new hickory shirt' ?
to establish the Indians
real advoidance of taking such an article?

or is some one trying to purposely point out the pin?

Well, not sure about the reason for pointing up the new hickory shirt, but some Indians were respectful of dead enemies if they were found to be wearing something which could appear to be "big medicine" for example, Captain Myles Keogh of the 7th Cavalry, killed at the Little Bighorn, was wearing a large medal <given him by the Pope > on a chain around his neck in a small leather pouch, a manner very similar to that used by plains Indians for carrying their own medicine symbols - and this appears to be the reason why his body was not mutilated in any way when found.

Another possibility is that the attackers were not Apaches, but that is quite another interesting path....
Roy

[roc2rol]

its all very interesting
we established in this discussion
that maybe
Indians won’t mutilate a body
that as some sort of significant symbol

yet it not really established, I suppose,
that it was the perpetrator that murdered
Weiser that stripped him naked.
He could have been naked and then killed.

---Wasn’t there a similar tale told
of Jacob murdering a couple peons
that were naked except for wearing a gee string?---

Ya know.. I’m not real good at this Sherlock Homes type of reasoning
but I think with some thought and discussion
other theories of how the death occurred could be reasonably established
& does it lead anywhere mineful?
perhaps….

for me tho… I’m a little better at hard research
like finding out if Barks arrowheads exist
or lineage of Masonic pins

search on men

Ed

[roc2rol]

just to add a side note:

I think I was bit hasty in portraying the Mason’s
as some sort of clandestine secret society
--and that not to say that element isn’t there---

it makes for great late night intrigue
but in light of day the truth may be bit more sobering

it might be best to keep in mind, also
that the Masons
especially of the late 1800's thru 1900's
were mostly a gentleman’s club of movers & shakers,
trying to do benign works for the progress of their communities,
and also, to watch everyone’s else’s money flow

a very interesting article on the History of Masons in Arizona

http://www.wayfarers50.com/history.php

I had no idea they were so firmly established in the early Arizona settlements

[djui5]

Interesting discussion here.

[Jim Hatt]

I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion here, but I have been giving it a lot of thought and decided that there is something we all have to keep in mind, before getting too hung up in the details of anything we read in the books.

We must always remember that everything that has been published is one or more steps removed from the source. That being Jacob Waltz himself. He never wrote a book himself, so we cannot say what "he" said. The very best we can do under any circumstances is quote what Sims Ely says that Julia (or Reiney) said, that Waltz said. That leaves a lot of room for misunderstandings and misquotes.

Did Waltz use the words "Masonic Pin" or was he just trying to describe "something" that was on the shirt, that Julia took to be a "Masonic Pin" based on Waltz's description of it? Did Julia (or Reiney) actually use the words "Masonic Pin" or did Ely take it to be a "Masonic Pin" based on what he was told about it?

Just something to think about before investing too much time looking for the answer.

Jim

[oroblanco]

Djui5 wrote

Interesting discussion here.

What do you think amigo? Any thoughts? Thank you in advance,

Jim Hatt wrote

We must always remember that everything that has been published is one or more steps removed from the source. That being Jacob Waltz himself. He never wrote a book himself, so we cannot say what "he" said. The very best we can do under any circumstances is quote what Sims Ely says that Julia (or Reiney) said, that Waltz said. That leaves a lot of room for misunderstandings and misquotes.

All true, and a source of many an argument. Some have even proposed that there never was a partner named Weiser at all, that Waltz made it all up. <Usually the same folks who say there never was a mine, but I digress> I had no luck in tracking down any lists of members of Masons for early Arizona. The pin may have looked a bit different from the example posted too - there are quite a few different types known. Here is one example from the last quarter of the 1800's


...though it is not important exactly what style it was, unless that would give us a clue as to where Weiser had been a member of the Masons - if he was a Mason and this story is true.

That bit about the Masonic pin sure escaped my notice and I had forgot it entirely, until you fellows brought it up. Thank you again,
Roy

[Guz]

Oro..Waltz' partner was not from Arizona, correct? If you know where he spent his time before he started prospecting then thats where I'd look. There isn't much info on Weiser though, is there?

Guz

[oroblanco]

Oro..Waltz' partner was not from Arizona, correct? If you know where he spent his time before he started prospecting then thats where I'd look. There isn't much info on Weiser though, is there? Would you email me at bigguz2112@gmail.com please, I'd like to ask you something.

Guz

Hola amigo,
You are correct, at least as far as I know, Weiser was NOT from AZ, and there is no clear document trail of him. However there are problems even in Waltz's trail, for by one version he arrived in New Orleans, then went via Texas to CA while by another version he arrived in NYC and went to Georgia, then New Orleans etc. It is a complicated deal just to work out the correct trail! I am more than half convinced that Weiser was in the Montana goldfields prior to coming to AZ but can not prove it, yet. I will drop you an EM note shortly.
Oroblanco