I just saw him at the gun show in Mesa last weekend. Very nice and interesting character. I did get to go to his "talk" last month so it wasnt my first time to meet him. (And ~Bleep~ on you Jim Hatt for letting us know he would be there because i went down there to speak to Clay and ended up spending $500 on a new pistol!! )
We are fortunate to live here as far as the Dutchman goes but, if youre from Oregon, that aint too bad either!
Jim Hatt wrote:This Discussion is not restricted to any specific Topic, and can be used to discuss anything related to the Lost Dutchman Mine or the Superstition Mountains, that is not already being discussed in a topic of it's own.
I want to discuss with anyone that will engage me a hypothetical question; what we are going to do about the fact that even if you found the LDM you would have to surrender all of its wealth to the government: state, local and Federal Government.
Why not keep it a secret if you find it and keep the Supers the way they are?
If you are not going to get one dime for saving the country and the state with a billion in gold then what is the one thing you are going to do?
If you have to prove you have found it, what is the incentive for the government to not just sieze the mine and somehow shut you out.
After watching Clay Worst's Lecture I am convinced you would have to rely on John McCain or some senator to pass a bill and disclaim that the Wilderness Act was based on the fact that the Superstitions had no precious metals, per geologists.
Seriously, think about the next step after finding the LDM, what would you do?
I would contact the History Channel or NatGeo and, after they signed a non-disclosure agreement and got a permit to film, i would take them out there and film every clue and the mine. Then SOMEONE would have proof that gold did exist and that might be hard for the government to argue with. Then, at the worst, you might not get the gold but, you might be able to live pretty comfortable on the "discovery money". Books, intervies, TV, movies, etc....
If I was in this just for “gettin some gold” I can think of a lot of places that are easier, less costly, less time consuming, less aggravating and most of all – proven locations. Let’s face it, the odds of me finding the LDM are slim, this is not a good financial proposition.
For me this is about the thrill of chasing a legend and the possibility that I might just outsmart the disinformation folks and prove to my own satisfaction that “I did it”. The older I get, the more I realize that there’s more to life than money. The gold has been the people I have met along the way – well, most of them anyway. And I’m not saying that just to sound quaint. People that I don’t even know have mailed me hardcopies of Bark Notes and others have taken the time to get me back on track when I mixed up Holmes, Thomas, Deering, Thorn and Davy Jones Locker. Where else can you find folks like that today?
If I ever was fortunate (lucky?) enough to find the LDM, there are a couple people on my list that I would tell. Mainly because I believe that I could trust them not to turn the discovery into a national event. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to leave it where it is, smile quietly as others share their experiences and tell their theories at the rendezvous, and maybe drop a few hints from time to time in the forums. The more I follow the legend, the more I feel it would be a shame to strip the mine of its ore just to have it ground up and sold on the market by a bunch of greedy wall-street types. If others have experienced half the thrills that I have, I would never feel right about depriving everyone else of their experiences just for me to be “gettin some gold”. I can do that (and do it legally) in any western state with my dredge.
Howdy all. My name is Kris and I know at least one fellow poster (Reptilist) via a couple other forums. I'm 35 and live in Phoenix. I've lived in the Phoenix area for 17 years, and knew about the LDM prior to moving out here.
Which brings me to the meat of my post...Everyone has their own beliefs regarding the existence of the LDM, so allow me to post mine. I'm a natural skeptic (not cynic) with regard to most matters...I tend to think scientifically. Let me say that I've enjoyed reading up on everyone's adventures and I hope to add a few of my own as time goes by.
I've done quite a bit of reading on the LDM (both online and via books) and I see very little basis for believing that it is anything more than a legend. I have no doubt that Jacob W. lived in the 1800s...That much can be verified. Further, I don't doubt that he had access to gold that (at least according to some) was from an as yet unidentified source. That's about as far as I'm willing to take things with relation to the existence of the LDM. Let me explain my skepticism, and I welcome any feedback.
First, the LDM legend has many of the same elements that many other "lost gold mine" stories do...there's betrayal, intrigue and adventure, etc. etc. etc...Unfortunately, (like so many other legends) there's also a remarkable paucity of verifiable information relating to the existence of the mine itself...What information DOES exist is scientifically questionable at best.
For example, with regard to the Peralta Stones, some claim they are a hoax while others claim with equal vehemence that they are genuine...Apparently, at some point the FBI even became involved and declared that they were at least 100 years old...Yet, when one looks further one finds that any substantiating evidence of such FBI involvement (save word of mouth and largely second hand info) has been "destroyed" or never existed. I have a fair amount of experience with government organizations, and I can say that the FBI (even in the 1960s) most likely would have maintained an extensive paper trail when they had possession of the stones (especially considering that there was apparently pending legal action with regard to them).
What's more, even if we grant that the stones are genuine (a BIG concession given what we know), we CAN'T say with any level of scientific certainty that they're related AT ALL to the LDM! Conventional wisdom and myth have intertwined them so that now one can scarcely discuss the LDM without at least bringing up the Peralta stones as part of the story.
More than any of that though, my skepticism stems from two things I feel confident in regarding the LDM. The first is rather straightforward...Many, many people in the 150+ years that this legend has been alive have gone searching for this "mother lode"...many people have claimed to know where it is...some people have even claimed to have seen it...Yet NO ONE has yet come forward with even a speck of gold that can be tied back to it. Yes, I'm aware that Jacob W. purportedly had some ore under his bed when he died...Even if that were the case, there's no way of conclusively saying that that ore came from a mine in the Superstitions...The best that can be said is that that ore came from a location as yet unidentified. So, we don't even know where Jacob W. acquired his ore, yet (because of the mystique and legend surrounding the LDM) we want to imagine that there's a hidden mine out there just waiting for discovery.
The second issue is fairly straightforward as well...from my reading and the research I have done, the geology of the Superstitions does not lend itself to much in the way of gold production...Not to say that gold doesn't exist there, but the geology says that there likely isn't much (and what is there is probably not accessible without heavy machinery...something a lone prospector riding a mule or horse into the mountains most assuredly didn't have).
Keep in mind these are simply my opinions...The whole story surrounding the LDM is a great one...I certainly enjoy it...I'm not a geologist...while I would welcome anyone's assertion that the geology of those mountains is conducive to large scale gold ore or bullion, I (as yet) haven't heard anyone say so. Likewise I (along with everyone else here I'm sure) would love for someone to step forward (with proof) that the LDM does exist and the ore that Jacob W. had did indeed come from the Supes...Alas, I think that if either of those things were going to happen, they would have already.
I love the Superstitions...I'm hiking around and exploring every chance I can get...I'm not at home unless I'm hiking up the side of a mountain or stumbling down a desert wash (I'm an amateur nature photographer and I LOVE 1800s period history)...I'm sincerely not trying to introduce myself here and "poo-poo" anybody's beliefs....Rather, I'm simply stating my beliefs and the evidence (or lack thereof) in support of them. To me, the REAL treasure in the Superstitions are the Superstitions themselves...no secret mother lode of gold exists there waiting for some lucky soul to uncover it.
I guess (as far as legends go) they're one of the things that keeps life interesting...regardless of whether there's truth to them or not, we need to believe that they exist for a variety of reasons (not the least of which is our need to be "a part of it all")...Without verifiable evidence that the LDM exists now (or ever did for that matter), I'm on the side that enjoys good stories.
If you've gotten this far, I thank you for allowing me to introduce myself and I look forward to any and all feedback you may choose to provide!
Everyone is welcome to their own beliefs. However... I have to wonder why anyone who does not believe in the LDM, or the authenticity of the stone maps, would bother to waste their time in a forum dedicated to those subjects, unless they just wanted to harass those who do believe?
Nobody here wants to convert you into a believer in the LDM, the stone maps, or the possibility of a rich mineral vein in the Superstitions, any more than we want to convert you into becoming a Catholic or Baptist. Follow your own beliefs, but please refrain from trying to convert others, (who you already know believe differently), to what you believe, any more than you would try to going into a Baptist Church, and preaching Catholic beliefs.
Your love of the Superstition Mountains is shared by everyone here, no matter what it is that draws them in there. Stories about your own adventures out there, would be most welcome, and I look forward to reading about them. Until someone finds a large quantity of gold (in any form) out there... Maybe that's all any of us really have to share anyway.
No, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to my way of thinking...simply introducing myself and advising as to my thoughts on the subject of the LDM. Also, I'm certainly not trying to harass, demean or otherwise ridicule anyone for their beliefs...whether we're talkin' religion, LDM or UFOs each person has the right to believe as they see fit regardless of what others may think. Agreed?
I posted here for a few reasons...First, I'm a naturalist at heart and the Superstitions are quite a unique and wonderful place...I've seen and photo'd quite a bit of wildlife there and I'm privileged to be able to do so. I've read through this forum and found myself thinking that it's likely that I've explored many of the same areas that others have, (but for obviously different reasons!)...My idea of finding a treasure is observing a rattlesnake or two, and I doubt many feel the same.
All that being said, I DO enjoy hearing about the LDM legend...I may not believe it, but from a historical aspect it's fascinating to think about how others lived back in the 1800s and how much the world has changed. As I said, some aspects of the legend (in a historical context) are accurate (i.e. the big flood, Jacob W., etc.) and so I enjoy learning about what life was like in the not too distant past.
Those two things taken together mean that I likely have more in common with meany posters here than we have differences. That's why I posted here and hope to share my stories in furtherance of that.
It is good to see that we are pretty much on the same page. There is a wealth of information in these forums that you will not find anywhere else. The more time you spend reading the topics here. The better chance you will have of spotting something out in the mountains that rings a bell, and brings some things into focus for you. That is how true "Believers" are born. No amount of arguing or debating what is in print will ever convince anyone. Only what you can see with your own eyes, while on the trail, (and off) can make someone believe.
The potential link between the LDM and the stone maps is very small if you are looking for verifiable evidence. However... When you consider (as you pointed out) that the vast majority of the Wilderness Area is non-mineralized., There are some very highly mineralized "hotspots" out there, and history shows that nearly all of the past LDM and stone map enthusiasts, who made major investments in their searches, ended up in those same mineralized areas... The potential of a link between the two becomes much larger.
I posted a subject I felt had relevance to the subject at hand, yet I see that it looks to be deleted. Was I mistaken? Was it moved or taken completely offline? Thanks.
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