Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Thanks Wayne, interesting videos.

Joe

[Injunbro]

The word Tsanti or Tsananti are both unfamiliar to me - which doesn't mean much of anything. The Apache language changes as words are dropped & added to the point some elders have trouble talking to their own grandchildren. Part of that is because peoples names are traditionaly not used after death & a new word takes it's place but in other areas it may still be used. The word used by my family for 'healer', 'shaman', etc. is Aataali or Haataali.
The Quero Apaches are a small group of mixed White Mountain Apache/Western Apache/Yavapai/Mexican/Whites who convinced somebody or other to give them a very small reservation near Payson, AZ. I find them a somewhat confused but amusing bunch trying to search for threads of their long-lost roots & heritage.

[Injunbro]

Injunbro:

Something for the elders perhaps.
Are there any stories told of the presence of robed priests,Jesuit or Franciscan, within the area between the Gila and the Salt Rivers?

Regards:SH.

Not to my knowledge. The Jesuits went up into Navajo & Hopi country so it's possible. I've heard rumors of Jesuit caches in the Sup's near Weavers Needle but have no insight to whether it's true or just another baseless legend. There was a black lady in the 1960's who searched for a cache there. One fairly reliable source said she did find some cached gold & silver.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

The word Tsanti or Tsananti are both unfamiliar to me - which doesn't mean much of anything. The Apache language changes as words are dropped & added to the point some elders have trouble talking to their own grandchildren. Part of that is because peoples names are traditionaly not used after death & a new word takes it's place but in other areas it may still be used. The word used by my family for 'healer', 'shaman', etc. is Aataali or Haataali.
The Quero Apaches are a small group of mixed White Mountain Apache/Western Apache/Yavapai/Mexican/Whites who convinced somebody or other to give them a very small reservation near Payson, AZ. I find them a somewhat confused but amusing bunch trying to search for threads of their long-lost roots & heritage.

I can't help but wonder if they got the name from one of the five branches of the Pueblo tribes of New Mexico and Arizona. One of those tribes was named the Queres, who were located at San Felipe on the Rio Grande, and, Santa Ana and Zia on the Jemez River. The Queres were also part of Cochití and Santo Domingo as well as Acoma and Laguna, from what I have read.

As far as I know, the Quero are not recognizes as Apache by any modern-day Apache tribe. I would be surprised if they had a "formal" reservation. Seems more likely that they are on private land.......donated.

Joe Ribaudo

[Injunbro]

I can't help but wonder if they got the name from one of the five branches of the Pueblo tribes of New Mexico and Arizona. One of those tribes was named the Queres, who were located at San Felipe on the Rio Grande, and, Santa Ana and Zia on the Jemez River. The Queres were also part of Cochití and Santo Domingo as well as Acoma and Laguna, from what I have read.

As far as I know, the Quero are not recognizes as Apache by any modern-day Apache tribe. I would be surprised if they had a "formal" reservation. Seems more likely that they are on private land.......donated.

Joe Ribaudo

Sounds reasonable to me. The little I know about them is they are a mixed breed bunch. I asked a White Mountain Apache friend about the Quero's & he referred to them as 'The Garbage Dump Indians' & said they used to make a living picking up stuff @ the dump. It seems like one of them wrote a book named something like 'Don't Let The Sun Step Over You'.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Injunbro,

[Sounds reasonable to me. The little I know about them is they are a mixed breed bunch. I asked a White Mountain Apache friend about the Quero's & he referred to them as 'The Garbage Dump Indians' & said they used to make a living picking up stuff @ the dump. It seems like one of them wrote a book named something like 'Don't Let The Sun Step Over You'.]
__________________________________

IMHO, it's a mistake tying Eva Tulene Watt to the people you are talking about. A Google search of Eva's name will produce more than enough material on the woman to tell you your friend made a mistake. This is the first site you will find:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... d=40028210

I like her book....a lot. She recounts her families' history from 1860 to 1975. For $16.27 you can find a paperback copy of her book here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... &x=96&y=10

I would highly recommend it for anyone interested in Apache history and life as a White Mountain Apache. She was assisted in getting the book to publication by Keith H. Basso.

Eva passed away on Jan. 19, 2009, in Show Low. She was 95.

Take care,

Joe

[Injunbro]

Injunbro,
IMHO, it's a mistake tying Eva Tulene Watt to the people you are talking about. A Google search of Eva's name will produce more than enough material on the woman to tell you your friend made a mistake.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, you are correct, I named the wrong book, thanks for pointing it out. Sorry for any wrong information. The book I was thinking of is: Legends & Prophecies of the Quero Apache by Maria Yraceburu. I picked up a copy but haven't started reading it yet.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Injunbro,

No big deal. These days, I am often wrong, but I had Eva's book in front of me and knew her history. I will take the real Apache's word for the made up Quero Apache.
Believe it's all about making a buck.

Thanks for your reply.

Take care,

Joe

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Injunbro,

"I've heard rumors of Jesuit caches in the Sup's near Weavers Needle but have no insight to whether it's true or just another baseless legend. There was a black lady in the 1960's who searched for a cache there. One fairly reliable source said she did find some cached gold & silver."

Around 40-years ago, I was camped just above Piper's Spring with my uncle, dad, brother and Cousin Sam. That night some folks set up camp at the spring. We all went down to say hello. It was a man and his wife who were in the mountains in preparation for a book they were writing.

They had a nice fire going and one of those big camp coffee pots. They invited us to sit down and have some coffee. It turned out that the man used to work for Ed Piper, and he had some very interesting stories to tell. When the coffee got low, he would add water and a few handfuls of coffee grounds and let it boil for a bit.

One of his stories was about a line of people that would climb up the north side of Weaver's Needle. At some point in the climb, the lights would go out one after the other, as if they were going into a cave. Later they would appear one at a time and proceed down the mountain.

He also told us about the deal that Ed had with the Apache (So it's claimed), that he would leave the mountains on a certain date each year. One year, Ed decided to hide and try to find out what they were doing. He climbed up into the rocks and hid out. They claimed that two Apache found him hiding and escorted him out of the mountains. I asked where he hid, and the guy pointed to the west and told us up on the side of the ridge.

That just happens to be where I had placed part of the Stone Map trail, so I was pretty interested in the story. In addition, my brother and I had found two monuments on top of that ridge, in that area, that looked like they had been built by stone masons.

Take care,

Joe

[Injunbro]

I believe the Black ladies name was Celeste Marie Jones & her people were pretty much @ war W/ Ed Piper & traded shots occaisionally. If my memory serves Piper had to shoot one of them in defense. It was said she blasted part of the top off Weavers Needle while trying to recover Jesuit treasure & was ran off soon afterwards.
The times the Apaches wanted no one around would have to do w/ their ceramonies & reveal the locations of caves where they believe they came up from the 'underworld'. Although I know where this area is & where the ceramonies are held & religous items kept I won't discuss it further out of respect to those who still believe in the old ways. I'm a Christian but still respect their beliefs. I personally believe this is when the quit being 'cave men' & became nomadic raiders but respect other folks right to believe any way they want as long as they don't harm others.