Why didn't Waltz file a claim?

[Hooch]

That's a great story and all but lets look at solid facts not stories. What do we have? A lighter? Where's all the rest of this gold from this super rich gold mine?

[AshtonPage]

An analogy to your question would be, ‘where are all the paychecks from your years of working?’ Obviously, you spent it. Same thing with the gold. While the weekend hobbyist with his\her metal detector goes out occasionally and picks up a few flakes of gold as trophies, professional miners (like Waltz) don't mine gold just so they can have piles of ore sitting in their living room.

Julia and Reiney who knew Waltz better than anybody and supposedly saw some of the gold, spent everything they had in order to go looking for the gold mine. There had to be a mighty powerful incentive for Reiney to spend the rest of his life chasing after the LDM – not to mention convincing his father and brother to join him on the quest.

Best,
Ashton

[oroblanco]

Great explanation Ashton - I would only add that the "lighter" is not a lighter, it is a matchbox. There are several other pieces of jewelry made from the same ore, however photos are not easy to come by.

Hooch if you would do some research on the Lost Dutchman mine, you might be surprised at what you find. Yes there is a lot of BS in circulation but try to stick to the sources closest in time (and relationship) to Jacob Waltz, this will avoid most of the baloney.

It is a common thing to disbelieve that there is such a thing as a lost gold mine known as the Lost Dutchman, but simply because the mine is not found does not mean it does not exist. Do we see people discussing the lost Mojave mine of AZ? No, because it is not lost today; you can stand on the highway west of Quartzsite and look directly at it, but this mine was at one time one of the most famous lost mines in the territory, and just as scoffed at by "those in the know" until an enterprising prospector trailed the chief of the Mojaves to the mine. We could list many more examples like Goler's gold, now known as Goler Gulch in the El Paso range or the lost PIma mine, known today as the Vekol and for over a century was a famous lost mine thought by many to be fictional until the Pima Indians showed the location to their friend Dr John Walker to repay his kindnesses to their people.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[AshtonPage]

Hi Guys,

It’s been a while, but I’ve been pretty much out of commission. My health finally caught up with me and it looks like my days of being able to hike through the Superstitions are behind me. That has been a hard pill for me to swallow. I’m not terminal but I’m not very well either. Anyway……… what I’m saying is; if you’re young enough to hike in the hills, then do it while you can. While I would give anything for “just one more trip” I’m glad I went searching when I was able to.

OK – so how come Waltz never filed a claim? How come Waltz never had a boatload of money? And so on….

I’ve gotten a few (as in very few) bits of ‘inside info’ from sources that I have confidence in. While my final appraisal does not agree with theirs, I’ve come across a few things they haven’t. So take this for what it’s worth – it’s still only one man’s theory, and nothing more.

In connecting all the dots, I am convinced that what Waltz had (and ALL that Waltz had) was a cache. Where he got (stole, swindled, found) the cache from, I have no idea. I also believe that he spent time searching for the source of that cache (that is, a lost mine) hence the reported trips of Waltz trekking into the Superstitions – but I don’t believe he ever found it. Waltz's continuing search in the Superstition for the source of the cache would also explain why Waltz would just as easily left the bulk of the cache in the hills - probably a safer place than 'under the bed'.

I think the mine itself was nothing more than a good cover story to Julia and others as to where he got the gold, but (and here’s the interesting part) “the mine was covered up (of course) and there’s nothing Julia and Reiney could do with the mine anyway”. That’s an interesting thing to say about a mine with “enough gold to make 20 men millionaires” to friends who were struggling to pay their debts, isn’t it?

The first time someone said that he believed Waltz only had a cache, it just didn’t sit right with me. But accurate conclusions are not formed by following your “gut feelings”, accurate conclusions only come from connecting the dots on only those things you know (or have a high degree of confidence in) to be true.

Assuming that I’m right about the ‘cache only’ would explain why Waltz never filed a claim, why Waltz never had a boatload of money, why nobody could find the LDM (although one hike through the Superstitions will provide a viable alternative explanation), why his directions to the mine were so obscure, etc. I believe one of the many mistakes Reiney and Julia made was searching for the mine – when they should have been searching for the cache. Remember, Waltz was NOT going to take them into the mine, he was only going to point to some patch of ground and say “somewhere over there buried, covered up and concealed is where the mine is.”

Some will say that the “chink in the armor” to my theory is why then would Waltz have killed his nephew? Well (if that even happened in the first place) realize that you’re mixing Holmes and Petrasch versions. But if there was a nephew and if I am correct about the ‘cache only’ theory then Waltz and his nephew would have been searching for the source of the cache, i.e. a lost mine……… if the nephew was as impatient as described in the Holmes Mss. then it would be reasonable to assume that he wanted to ‘forget this lost mine business and let’s just bring out the entire cache – right now’. With the threat (also in line with the Holmes Mss. Description of the nephew) that if Waltz didn’t comply, then the nephew would spill the beans about the location or how Waltz managed to get the cache in the first place. Obviously, that’s all speculation but it does answer the question about the nephew. This brings me to Holmes version……….

I still believe that Waltz was having a bit of fun with Dick Holmes. While I think some of the things Waltz told Holmes were true, other things were nothing more than a wild goose chase. Again, only my opinion BUT that does explain the extreme discrepancies between the Holmes and Petrasch versions. It also explains where Holmes and Petrasch overlap in some areas.


Good luck my friends,
Ashton

[Matthew Roberts]

Ashton,

Saw your post and had to say I'm sorry your health will not allow you to continue your searching the Superstition Mountains. You have put in some good hard miles in that endeavor and I have been privileged to know some of your search plans and feel you have been on the right trail. That trail however is one of the roughest in the entire range, not the Disneyland playground around Weaver's Needle with it's highways for trails.

I agree with your idea that Waltz had made several caches in the mountains for safekeeping.

I have always felt the actual mine itself being so elusive it made searching for the caches more practical than the mine itself. That's not to say I don't believe there is a mine back there, there may well be, I just feel if it's there, it has been covered over so well it has become a part of the desert and canyons and discovering it today would be an amazing stroke of luck.

Caches are a different story, they must be hidden well, but not so well someone couldn't come back to them after a long period of absence, or be able to direct someone else to them if necessary. Some sort of landmark would be the normal course or method. I believe Waltz used spires or as he referred to them , .... spitzfelsen, or .... felzenspitz.

I believe Waltz came by his gold from the three Mexicans he killed in the mountains. He told Rhinehart Petrasch, ..... " I hid my gold caches like the Mexicans hid theirs." ......... This leads me to believe he came by his gold suddenly and used the same method of hiding his gold the Mexicans he killed had used. Namely caching the gold to keep it safe. In my opinion he simply took the gold and moved it to his own unique hiding places using his own unique landmarks.

I believe Waltz was leery about showing up back in Phoenix with a sudden fortune. There were a lot of Mexicans living on the south half of both Waltz's and Andrew Starrar's homesteads. Perhaps he knew some of those Mexicans were friends, or family of the Mexicans he had killed.

Another reason, and this is my own personal opinion, is I believe Waltz was on fairly good terms with Andrew Starrar, but not with Jacob Starrar, David Schultes, Edward Slosser and his wife Elvira Tewksbury. A sudden change in fortune would have altered the dynamics that made up Waltz's precarious homestead arrangement.

Jacob Waltz's caching his gold in the mountains may well have been his only real option given the circumstances. I also believe, in my own opinion, that the murder of Pedro Ortega was done by Waltz and he would have murdered Selso Grijalva also if Grijalva had not fled and never returned. I believe this murder was tied to things Ortega and Grijalva who both lived on Waltz's homestead, had learned about the fortune in gold Waltz had and was hiding from everyone, and possible the murders in the Superstitions.

I also am of the opinion that the so called , "deathbed confession" given to Dick Waltz and Gideon Roberts was not a one time occasion on the eve of Waltz's death. I believe the things Holmes and Roberts learned were told to them over a period of weeks and months, a little at a time following the great flood when Waltz was forced out of his homestead and had to live in town. Holmes and Roberts were with Waltz when he finally died and undoubtedly heard Waltz's final confession which was common among German people of that time period. After Waltz died, Holmes and Roberts went to Holmes house and wrote down everything each of them had been told and had heard from Waltz. They agreed on everything but one point.

Hope you are feeling better Ashton and your assessment is premature and you may one day hike the trails again.

Matthew

[cubfan64]

Ashton, I'm awfully sorry to hear of your health issues. It was a real pleasure exploring and talking with you last fall for a few days and I'm sorry that we might not have another chance to meet up out there!

You make some well thought out arguments for the idea of Waltz simply having a cache or two of gold ore rather than an actual mine. Odds are pretty good that 99.9% of us will not know the real answer until our days on this earth are done and we can have a private discussion with old Jake himself .

I mostly just wanted to let you know I enjoyed spending some time with you last year and wish you the very best.

Paul

[AshtonPage]

Hi Guys,

I keep telling myself "if I just do this or that, then I will be able to make it back in". The last few days I found myself trying to figure out how to manage my next trip in to the hills. But (reality check) even on our last trip (with Cubfan) I started hemorrhaging CSF - that's why I couldn't make the last 1/2 mile of the trek. If I would have pushed myself, then I wouldn't have made it back to camp.

I hope and pray that I simply get better as those things do happen. But even if it doesn't......... out of all my high school buddies that talked around the campfire of searching for lost treasure - I went. I did my best and I came close. So even if I never make it back in for just one more look, there will be no "what if's" in my life. And I will always remember the people who didn't even know me, but trusted me enough to go searching with me for the LDM. Maybe I found the gold after all.

There's no regrets on my part, this has literally been the journey of a lifetime. I'm still around and who knows, I might think of something else worth posting from time to time.

Thanks,
Ashton

[cubfan64]

I completely agree with your statement that "maybe you found gold afterall." I doubt there's a single "treasure hunter" out there who doesn't look back fondly on at least most of his or her experiences, besides, what's life without chasing a dream??!!

Don't rule out the possibility of riding a horse or mule in to your spot. You'd have more energy that way once you get to camp, and could take shorter, less strenuous exploration tangents from the camp and back.

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Ashton,

Sorry to hear about your restricted freedom, but welcome aboard. While this life raft may not take us anywhere, it will keep us afloat. We at least have the memories of better times that others don't, and we have Google Earth!

Your thoughts may go up a notch, as your new ideas indicate. Look at who discovers more about our universe, not the ones in the spaceship, but the one in the wheelchair.

Homar

[babymick1]

Ashton

Well first off, hope you kick your health problems, and hit the trails again.

But Waltz just having a cache doesn't make "cents" to me, I mean why risk your life through hostile country every time you need a little coin, just hide it closer. The source of his gold is there, Now if he over produced more then he could carry and cached some for later, yes I would do that.

Health be with you

Babymick1