Parashant

[Desert Cruiser]

Well Jack: that's the kind of attitude a lot of people have about others driving off road (There will always be people who do it)

Jack's quote:
As concerns trash, there will always be people who throw it out,
whether on paved roads or off

It's still not the thing to do, and does almost as much damage as you described. Oh and one other thing, what do you tell disabled people when they shut down all the dirt, gravel roads
into the desert -- sorry but you just can't see this anymore. I think your assumption is wrong, enforcement of the laws would be nice, but with the economy the way it is -- won't happen -- so what is the answer?

As for the snowmobiles, what kind of damage does that cause running on top of the snow. it's not tearing up the landscape --- maybe you could clarify that --- and please keep it civil. Thank you.

Don....

[Jack4136]

I'm always civil, Don, and only request that you follow my example.
I've pretty much said what I have to say. Have a good day. Over and out.

[Desert Cruiser]

Jack: Thank you for your ideas on this subject. Of course there are a lot of different view points on it. I've been sitting here thinking about your message and here's what I think. I agree wholeheartedly on your view of ATV's going anywhere off road. Just by their nature and the tires they tear the roads, desert up pretty bad. It's the just the way they're made.

I do however think that other forms of travel (on designated roads) is ok if we're not abusive in doing so. And boy I've seen enough of that by others in 4 wheel drives and it aggravates me. But if we couldn't go off road with our Cruiser we'd just have to give up ever seeing or photographing anything in the desert, except from the interstate. And most interstates you can't stop to take photos. I do understand your feelings about this and respect them.

One other thing that's bothering me --- would you please explain why the use of snowmobiles in the snow hurts anything. Sorry but I'd like to know. Not an argument, maybe I need educating in this area. I'm always the first one to listen to both sides and try to make a judgement for myself based on my experiences and those of others.

Now the TRASH -- I think this is a bigger problem then you think it is. And should be a concern of all the law enforcement agencies. All the signs you see along the highways, roads for fines for littering -- no one ever gets fined! Why. Talk about ruining the appearance of our world! I was even told once by a BLM ranger that he didn't care about us picking up trash along the road, didn't care! Thats' not right, either your going to protect your surroundings or your not.


Thanks again,

Don....

[Sycamore]

If you're driving or riding an ATV off the asphalt you're damaging the desert ecosystem. Ask any ecologist. Snowmobiles cross country
and especially in national parks and national forests are also
damaging. I cannot do anything about it myself because legislators
do not have the willpower to pass laws to prevent it. It would be
helpful for our national and state public resources if more people
realized this and tried to do something about it, but the folks who
use mechanical devices off the pavement seem to have the upper
hand, and prefer their own pleasure to national conservation.

If the shoe fits...

As concerns trash, there will always be people who throw it out,
whether on paved roads or off.

Jack,

I'll respectfully disagree.

If you want to permanently change the eco-system, pave the road.

I agree that heavy use of a poorly located road may intercept existing surface runoff patterns (not good).

A dirt (or native-surfaced) road, if driven moderately, (not when wet) and without wheel-spin (breaking traction) does very little harm.

Some things about deserts can not be grasped at the scale that walking requires.

I do not leave trash, or make new tracks, or damage or remove artifacts, natural, pre-historic or historic.

I'm always on the lookout for ways I can enjoy the desert and leave less impact, so would love to hear your tips on reducing impacts.

Sycamore

[NissanBoy]

Wow I don't know why this disscussion went down such a poopy path. I am curious if Jack has ever done some offroading with educated respectful individuals. I have been to PNM many times and I have seen paths that were "created" by careless individuals, and they are indeed scars that will take many moons to heal! On the other hand PNM is such a large landscape traversing by foot is not really practical. If Jack really wants to witness damage to the terrain then show him what the open range cattle operations do out there. But at this time lets just agree to disagree! And there is no excuse for leaving trash, that is just f'in ridiculous!

On a lighter point I am determined to get some photos on here! Today that is!

mark

[NissanBoy]

OK I think I did this right. Bear with me guys cause I loaded about 70 pics. All of PNM, but from many different trips and forms of transportation. Enjoy!

http://s919.photobucket.com/albums/ad32/mghattendorf/

Mark

[Sycamore]

Mark,

great pics! I haven't been out to Grand Gulch in a while, looks like there is safety fence around some of the old openings?

Also, last time I came out from St. George, the Hayrocks sign was down, or I missed it somehow, nice to see the old sign.

I saw your picture of the Snap Canyon cabin, did you keep on going to get up on top of the rim, or turn around?

Sycamore

[Desert Cruiser]

Thanks for that link Nissanboy: I've seen the sign to Hayrocks but we never went there, looks like a nice trip, next time we get back up to St. George we'll have to head down that way.

Don....

[NissanBoy]

The pics of the cabin, grand gulch mine, & hayrocks were all taken in December of last year. We did make it all the way up Snap Canyon in my 2wd truck. It was a little interesting at times, but nothing the ole' Taco couldn't handle. The fed's are trying to do some restorative work to the Grand Gulch mine structures so they fenced it off to keep people away. Also, I believe they mentioned that the structure in the picture was unsound so they are attempting to keep people safe as well. It was nice during the day, but damn did it get cold that night. We spilled some water from the cooler and it ended up freezing and staying frozen well into the next morning. It was fun though, plenty of whiskey to warm the bones plus a nice campfire.

If you want to get deep into Parashant quickly then coming down from St George if the fastest, albeit not the most interesting. The pictures from the quad trip are mostly from the top of Elbow Canyon by way of Scenic, AZ.

There is so much more that I want to check out and now that I have a 4wd vehicle I am very excited for my next trip to PNM. I don't have to care about pinstriping or rock scars anymore with the Pathfinder.

[Sandman]

Great adventure Nissanboy. The Parashant is an amazing place. I did some hiking into the wilderness along the Tuckup Trail in the Grand Canyn NP near Toroweap. An AMAZING placee.......but be prepared for self rescue. Not much water in that area but there are a few seeps if you know where to look. There is also an pristine rock are panel thats protected by a long hike that very few will do.

Enjoy everyone!