ROJAS' SILVER BELL

[somehiker]

This is one passage that got my attention when first read.

"9.2. Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards

Real de la Santísima Trinidad, 28 degrees, 12 minutes latitude, 267 degrees longitude, was founded in 1754 when rich silver deposits were discovered.1 The mine by itself sustained the province of Ostimuri for five whole years. It is capable of producing much more than it has, but disputes, changes of ownership, and mismanagement have hindered it greatly. Indeed, it is operated wholly in opposition to the existing mining laws. Its yield by the firing process was high and by the mercury2 process considerably higher. It is now being worked secretly, and the returns with little effort are said to be good. There are


[page 117]
two small mines in the vicinity also: the Santa Ana to the southeast and the Guadalupe to the southwest. "

Also interesting was the apparent technical knowledge of refining process that Fr.Nentvig seems to exhibit.Not bad for a man of Jesuit cloth.

He is one who remains on my "short list".

Regards:SH

[Jim Hatt]

SH, re: Fr.Nentvig

I have come across his name many times in my own research, along with Rojas, and Sedelmeyer. Sedelmeyer is right at the very top of my short list. I have a copy of an old map that shows he and Kino both ventured North as far as the Salt River. Sedelmeyer could have been active in the Salt River area just prior to the 1767 Expulsion.

Jim

[somehiker]

Jim:
Unlike Kino,our Fr.Jacabo had no particular destination in mind during his first visit to the area along the Salt. He could probably afford more time to acting the part of a tourista while performing the duties of proselytizing and conversion.I also have recently obtained a copy of a map,cartoonish and somewhat childlike in execution,that illustrates a number of things that exist even today in the relevant area described by Sedelmeyer in his journals.Several trails are indicated,with waypoints of a similar style to that on the Stone Maps,one such trail eastward that branches into several at a point north of what we know as the massacre grounds.Garden Valley is shown as a large area with many domed structures and stick figures about.No horses are indicated anywhere on the map,as stick figures or otherwise,except for one shown with head bowed and tail swept forward.That branch of the trail ends nearby with that familiar three letter word that we love to see out there.Just kidding about the word part.There is only a dot at the end and a date.

Regards:SH

[Jim Hatt]

I don't think I have ever seen that map SH, but I sure would like to!

arizona_drifter at yahoo.com

Hint Hint...

PS: Everything I draw comes out looking "cartoonish" so that isn't cause for dismissing it, as far as I'm concerned.

[somehiker]

Not a chance.The relative position of that horse to a particular mountain is just too obvious,as are other details that would be instantly recognizable.It's like a cheat sheet in a way,that has more answers than I have questions and the student that forwarded the copy to me could lose her accreditation if it were to wind up in print....ever.A "modernized" version may be produced in the future,or portions thereof,if I can devise a way to make the original less identifiable as to the source.
I don't believe the style reflects on the artistic ability of the mapmaker.It probably was due to the environment in which it was made.Some words on the map,such as "erzengel" are german and appear to be penned very neatly.Other words are in latin and spanish of varying penmanship with translations provided,along the margins mostly,by those who previously studied the document.Nowhere is there any indication that this map has been linked by those who translated the words and phrases to the Stone Maps.I only do so because of the similarity of the depiction of the horse with that of "El Cobollo".

Regards:SH.

[Jim Hatt]

Well...If it comes from Fr. Sedelmeyer. I would have a lot of faith in it's connection to the same area the stone maps apply to.

Jim

[somehiker]

Nothing on it,Jim,that indicates that Sedelmeyer was the author.So far,I have not been able to positively connect it to any Jesuit in particular.I had come across something about a Jesuit attempt to establish a route,connecting Tucson with the Three Mesas area,but I recall that having been made much later than the date on the map.I'll keep working on it.

Regards:SH.

[somehiker]

Jim:
The Rojas' bell story is interesting because it seems to infer at least a couple of things.

First,that the Jesuits have commissioned a statue of Fr.Kino that also includes the horse that he was known to ride during his exploration of Arizona.The inference seems to me that these explorations,and his mount,were of great importance to Jesuit history.Not exactly rocket science because that is already well established.Anything else that Kino accomplished was of lesser import,even to his memory among present day Jesuits.Otherwise,the statue would have had a cross,or church,or something else on it's base.
Therefore it seems to me that the bell,and the story told by the Jesuit himself about the reason for the bell on the base of Fr.Rojas' statue,taken together,are what the Jesuit historians feel were Rojas' most important feat.

Second,that although the present location of the Kino statue makes sense and fits the acknowledged history of Jesuit travels,the Rojas statue does not.I would expect that there are many who would claim that the bell only indicates his mission work,but I would expect,if that were the case,the story told would have reflected that.
Could a careless Jesuit,living in the actual region to which the bell applies,have slipped up and in doing so,revealed that ... which was Fr. Rojas' greatest contribution to the Jesuit order?

Regards:SH.

[Jim Hatt]

Nothing on it,Jim,that indicates that Sedelmeyer was the author.So far,I have not been able to positively connect it to any Jesuit in particular.I had come across something about a Jesuit attempt to establish a route,connecting Tucson with the Three Mesas area,but I recall that having been made much later than the date on the map.I'll keep working on it.

Regards:SH.

SH,

It is very difficult to discuss a map, or form any kind of opinion about it (for myself and all the other readers here) without seeing the map. If it is so secret that you cannot share it, then you probably shouldn't be discussing it in an open forum either. All I can recommend you do under the circumstances, is pull your boots on, and go see where it leads you to.

re: Fr. Rojas

Sorry SH. I have not done any research on Rojas. The only thing I know about him is what is already posted in this topic.

Jim

[somehiker]

Hi Jim:
I already have,some time ago.The map is what prompted me to review my materials and revise the opinions that I had previously expressed elsewhere.As a result,I am now firmly planted on the "Stone maps are genuine side of the fence".
Perhaps you are correct in suggesting that I am wrong in mentioning the map that made me change my mind and broaden my search.I will drop it,for further mention without authentication and publication of the original,which I do not have anyway,would likely be of little value.There are many other subjects worthy of further discussion within this forum and much to be learned from them.

Regards:SH.