Sombrero Mt.

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Jim Hatt

Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by Jim Hatt »

twoguns wrote:
Per the Tonto Forest Service, which oversees The Sups. Wilderness. Removing ore from the shaft would be a violation, even if trying to prove the LDM.
Twoguns,

I could not disagree with you more!
Please review the discussion of the Wilderness Act at:

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=401

Best,

Jim
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by cubfan64 »

I don't recall specifically what I had asked in my last post, and I don't save them so can't go back and repost it.

While I applaud you for providing clear photographs of areas to support your claims, I have to admit that in general I really don't see most of the specific "things" in them that you do - even when you point them out with arrows. In general most of those things appear natural to me and could just as easily be anomalies that when viewed up close are nothing more than nature at work (shadows, cracks, etc...). I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessments, just that it isn't enough to convince me, and probably never would be unless I were in your shoes or at the site area myself.

I think my main question is what if anything you found in the mine you believe is the Sombrero Mine? Are there any tools or artifacts which can be dated to a certain period of history? Was/is there a mineral vein which the mine was following, and if so, what does it look like? Those are the sorts of questions which you may be unwilling to answer on a public forum and why I offered to give you my e-mail address (paulshimek@comcast.net). By offering you that, I'm not implying that I accept your claim as you've laid it out - just that I have an open mind and am willing to at least see what you have to provide as evidence that you may not be willing to share on an open forum - that's all.

Personally, I have to agree with Jim that your assessment of the regulations is not correct. In my interpretation of the rules, prospect samples can be taken - provided they are not significantly large. Collecting a small handful of mineral sample from a vein in an old mine (again in my opinion) is not a violation of the regulations.

As far as going into the mine is concerned, there are ways around putting yourself at risk if it's a vertical shaft - even something as simply as a video camera with light (or attached flashlight) lowered in by rope can be used to at least get an idea of what is or is not down there.
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by gollum »

As far as I understand, ROCK HOUNDING is allowed in any Wilderness Area.

Mike
Jim Hatt

Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by Jim Hatt »

Morning Mike,

I believe you are correct. The only place I have ever heard about where Rock Hounding is illegal, (but I have not read the applicable REG myself) is in the "Petrified Forest" in Northern Arizona, but I believe that is classified as a "National Park", not a "Wilderness Area".

Best,

Jim
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by twoguns »

I agree not everyone will see the same thing in the symbols. However, unless one has been to one of these 'symbol' sites to see the work done to produce the symbols, one cannot state for fact. I have and I can. When additional 'signs' such as the mule trail, trail markers, cut cactus, are present as well, then the evidence becomes clear. It is about a 1 mile hike up Tortilla Wash to this hill(1 Hr.). I encourage you to take the time(and your camera) and go see for yourselves. Ruth was looking for them based on clues provided to him from the decendants that would know, I did not pick this junction, it fit the clue. I have attached another set. When one knows what they are seeing, and how to locate them, one will be able to find mines at: Negro Mesa, Water Over Gold, Four Peaks, Bradshaws, SW of Payson, S of Young, Sycamore Canyon(by Sedona). My treasure was 'figuring this out' and finding additonal mines, some NOT in the Wilderness.
Image

As for ore...if one produces ore, and the 'site/shaft' it was removed from does not have the Dutchmans clues, it was not from my site. So if you find it somewhere else, YOU can claim you found his mine. My claim is the Sombrero Mine. All the Dutchman clues are here and fit. If I don't remove ore it doesn't change what is at this site and what I claim.
Per K.H., Supervisor at the Tonto Forest Service which oversees this Wilderness. If you pick it
up off the ground, you are ok. If you chip/break it out of a vein it is a violation. I also encourage you to call and verify this.
Jim Hatt

Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by Jim Hatt »

twoguns wrote:
Per K.H., Supervisor at the Tonto Forest Service which oversees this Wilderness. If you pick it up off the ground, you are ok. If you chip/break it out of a vein it is a violation. I also encourage you to call and verify this.
Twoguns,

Again... I encourage you to read the "Wilderness Act" (The Law) at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=401

Some Forest Service employees go way overboard in their "personal" interpretations of what that law says.

All that aside... What's stopping you from taking a photo of the vein?

Best,

Jim
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by somehiker »

twoguns:
I concur with Jim.A photograph of the ore vein would go a long way toward making your case for any such discovery.There are many old mines out there,a number in the area which has your attention.Several caves as well.The location has drawn the attention of several Dutchhunters,past and present I suspect.It is a popular hiking area as well,because of some of the stories.
Here is a photo of the north face of the same hill,taken from the trail which I have hiked in the past.
Image

Regards:Wayne
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by twoguns »

I have read the Wilderness Act and do NOT feel safe in assuming it allows me to remove ore from a vein. As for a picture of the veins, I do not think any would believe it came from the mine.
A couple questions.
If someone produced Dutchman ore, and there were none of the Ducthman or others clues at the site, would it be confirmed it is his mine?
If someone produced a site with the clues of the others and ALL the Dutchman clues, yet no gold is in the shaft, would it be confirmed it is his mine?
If I claim this is the Sombrero mine and all the clues fit, including the Dutchmans, can someone claim they 'discovered' the mine if they take a picture or remove ore from the shaft?
Jim Hatt

Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by Jim Hatt »

Twoguns,

No one person could provide an answer to all of your questions that everyone would accept.

ie: If someone found a vein that produced ore very similar to the Dutchman's... It would take a body of Dutchman Aficionados (like a jury) to review all of the facts, and vote on the likelihood of whether or not they had found the mine that was worked by Jacob Waltz.

The closer the ore matched Waltz's ore, and the more traditional clues from Waltz's story that existed in the area... The better the person's chance would be of getting conformation that they had found The Lost Dutchman Mine.

Simple as that!

In my opinion... The answer to all of your questions is No.

Best,

Jim


Footnote:

Back in the late 1990's.. I was fortunate enough to attend presentations made by Richard Robinson and Chuck Kenworthy, to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Board of Directors, where they presented their cases for having figured out how to read the Peralta Stone Maps.

Neither one of them walked away with a single vote of confidence, or endorsement that their solutions were correct.

Today... In order to even get an invitation to make such a presentation claiming to have solved the Stone Maps, or found the Lost Dutchman Mine. I believe a person would have to have already convinced 2 or 3 members of the SMHS Board of Directors, that his claim had some possible validity to it, before the presentation would be approved.

If anyone thinks I am "Tough" to convince. They have no idea of what tough is, until they stand up in front of those guys.
Last edited by Jim Hatt on Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Added Footnote
twoguns
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Re: Sombrero Mt.

Post by twoguns »

I have been asked to post a map with directions so here you are.
From the parking lot East of Tortilla Flat Bar, take the trail East into Tortilla Wash, up the wash to Peters Canyon. There are 'stacks' of 3 rocks that have been placed along the Washes(Totrtilla and Peters) that show the best way. As you start up Peters Canyon, on the Left a stack of rocks shows the trail around the Large Boulders in Peters Canyon. The trail is against the rock wall on the left. Continue up to Peters Cave and the Falls. About 75 ft. before the Falls, there is a 10 ft. high ledge on the Right. A 2 ft. rock is leaning against this wall. By stepping on this rock you can gain the lift needed to get on top of the ledge. The ledge passes to the Right of the Falls. About 100 yds. past the falls there is a 'Triangle' shaped boulder blocking the wash. At the start of the pool the triangle rock is in there is a ledge on the Left, about 15 ft. at highest point, that gets you past this pool/rock. The rest of the way to the site has no obstacles, just boulders to jump across and a few pools.
You do not need a rope and you can get by these with no help, although a partner makes is easier. It is a tuff hike, that is why I advised 'moderate to extreme'. Most washes in Az. are a risk during flash flood and I would hope those taking the hike are aware.
Image
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