TOP 5 BOOKS ON LDM

[rr-electricangel]

As I start reading about the LDM I have quickly discovered there are literally hundreds of books written about the subject. My question goes out to anyone that has read the many books about the LDM and can point to 5 books which give the best explanation or description of the facts. If you want to warn me about what books were not worth the paper they were written on that's O.K. too. So....What are your top 5 books on the subject?

[Jim Hatt]

Good morning rr-electricangel,

If your main interest is in actually putting your boots on the ground, and searching for the LDM. My opinion would be that you shouldn't need any more than 2 books.

1- THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE By: Sims Ely
2- THE STERLING LEGEND By: Estee Conatser.

Everything else contains either... Just a rehash of what is contained in these two books, and/or a Montague of "Campfire stories" from unknown or unconfirmed sources, which will confuse and mislead you.

Considering the fact that I have not found the mine myself using those two books. That leaves my "opinion" wide open for dispute, and it would not surprise me, if you got a wide range of opposing opinions.

Best,

Jim

[cubfan64]

I guess my 5 would be:

1) The Lost Dutchman Mine - by Sims Ely

2) The Golden Dream - by Thomas Glover

3) The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold - by Helen Corbin

4) The Bark Notes - written by Jim Bark (annotated version by Thomas Probert) - I believe a copy is available to be read at a library but I'm not certain which one (someone please correct me)

5) The Sterling Legend - by Estee Conatser

6) Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness - by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart - it's an excellent companion book to LDM legends Superstition History for when you decide to really get out there and look around.

If you are interested in just reading a couple "fun" books about the Lost Dutchman containing plenty of fiction along with some factual things, the two I usually think of are:

1) The Killer Mountains - by Kurt Gentry

2) Thunder God's Gold - by Barry Storm

------------------

As Jim said, you'll find as much controversy and disagreement over what are the best books on the LDM as you will everything else related to the LDM.

Paul

p.s. There are PLENTY of books out there that are likely not worth the paper they're printed on. I wouldn't post any of the names here out of respect for the authors, but if you read at least a few of the above ones, you can pretty quickly sort through others at book stores and tell whether there's much merit to them.

[Jim Hatt]

rr-electricangel,

I should have known that Paul would be the first to add a few books to my list of recommended reading material.

I began my reply to your question, by limiting it to: "If your main interest is in actually putting your boots on the ground, and searching for the LDM. My opinion would be that you shouldn't need any more than 2 books."

Paul appears to be taking a broader interpretation of your question, and including some personal favorites in his list, that offer little to no possibility of providing you with any usable information, in the way of valid clues or landmarks, that would help anyone find the LDM.

re:

2) The Golden Dream - by Thomas Glover
3) The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold - by Helen Corbin
6) Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness - by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart - it's an excellent companion book to LDM legends Superstition History for when you decide to really get out there and look around.

The reason I left these authors off my list, is that they are all late 20th century authors, with no direct link, to anyone that actually heard what Jacob Waltz was supposed to have told Julia Thomas and Reinhardt Petrash.

In the case of Glover and Corbin's books... They are both beautifully written and annotated rehashes of previously published material, and/or "campfire stories" obtained from 20th century Dutch-Hunters. The only exceptions (that come to mind) being Corbin's introduction of the "Ortiz Map" and Waltz's "Doodle", neither of which are going to put you any closer to finding the LDM than anything in Glover's book does.

re:

6)

Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness - by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart - it's an excellent companion book to LDM legends Superstition History for when you decide to really get out there and look around.

Another beautifully written and annotated, book by a late 20th century author, but one that was not intended to be a guide for locating the LDM. It is an ideal guide for people who want to get on the trail, and walk through the history of the Superstition Mountains, and see some of the actual places where many of the stories/legends were supposed to have taken place. (Again... according to "stories" told by 20th century Dutch-Hunters, that were interviewed for the book).

re:

4) The Bark Notes - written by Jim Bark (annotated version by Thomas Probert) - I believe a copy is available to be read at a library but I'm not certain which one (someone please correct me)

Here I strongly disagree with Paul as far as the idea of The Bark Notes being anything that anyone out there risking life and limb in search of the LDM should consider as being good "Source" material. My reasons for this can be found at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398

Then again I may have misunderstood Paul's intent for recommending it, and it may have only been recommended as one of his personal favorite pieces of reading material.

The last I knew there was a copy of the Probert version of The Bark Notes, that could be checked out (for reading in the library only) from the "Arizona Room" at the main Phoenix Library.

However... If you would like a personal copy of it... Send me an email request to:

"arizona_drifter@yahoo.com" (without the quotes), and I will send you an OCR'd copy the Thomas Probert version of the The Bark Notes. There are some "jibberish" typos in it due to the limitations of the OCR software I used to scan it, but it is still quite readable.

Best,

Jim

[cubfan64]

See what I mean about differences of opinion rr? And yes Jim, of course you should have known I'd be the first to respond - hehe.

rr comes on here asking for the 5 top books giving the best explanations or descriptions of the facts and the first two people post 2 and 8 books respectively - see none of us can follow directions

Seriously, I did interpret rr's question more broadly than you did Jim.

I'm on the border as far as the Bark Notes are concerned to be honest - if someone held a gun to my head and I had to make a decision, I would have to say there is too much question about their authenticity for me to put much stock in them.

I personally think there are still facts in Glover and Corbin's books to make them useful, and I would also argue that for anyone who has never been to the Superstitions, the Hiker's Guide is a superb way to orient oneself on their first trips - especially since first trips should probably not be off trail .

I did forget to mention one thing I had meant to say to rr - If you go to: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/chron.html, you will find a very good bibliography of countless Lost Dutchman books, articles, manuscripts, etc... along with some of the website owner's comments and notes about them.

[Jim Hatt]

I'm on the border as far as the Bark Notes are concerned to be honest

Is there anything concerning the LDM or the Stone Maps, that you are NOT "On the border" about Paul?

Best,

Jim

[cubfan64]

I'm on the border as far as the Bark Notes are concerned to be honest

Is there anything concerning the LDM or the Stone Maps, that you are NOT "On the border" about Paul?

Best,

Jim

Come to think of it, probably not

To be serious again though, I do have quite a few personal opinions that I'm not on the fence about, but in most every case my opinion is difficult to argue and back up with facts - either because I'm not able to share them publicly, or I haven't spent enough time "boots on the ground" as you say to help me argue the facts with knowledgeable folks. It's silly for me to come here and try to argue a position without good solid facts to back them up.

In some ways I find the LDM to be much like religion - it's a difficult topic to discuss with folks because so much of it just ends being a matter of faith - what you believe and what you don't. Too often one person's absolute proof doesn't look like anything but guesswork to someone else.

Being a scientist by nature and by training, I have to see many things firsthand before I believe them. I imagine if you think back to when you first got involved in all things dutchman, you probably saw something that proved to be true and worthy of following up on. Since then, you've spent many hours, days, months and years with feet on the ground and hearing firsthand stories from old timers - up to this point, you've had FAR MORE "proof" to rely on than I have, so you gotta cut me some slack

I believe Jacob Waltz existed and I believe he had a source of gold. That alone is enough to keep me interested until the time comes I can spend more time in the Mountains looking for some of the things that might provide me more proof.

[Jim Hatt]

I believe Jacob Waltz existed and I believe he had a source of gold.

Wow Paul!

For as long as you have been involved in this, that is not a very impressive list of conclusions that you have come to.

That Jacob Waltz existed is a "Freebie" and takes no faith at all to accept. That you are still undecided about what his source of gold was leaves me almost speechless.

Do you know that all 8 of the books you recommended to rr- say that the source for Waltz's gold was a mine? What have you found written anywhere else that causes you to doubt that, and remain undecided about what the source of his gold was?

Here I was all ready to consider you to be a potential rising star in the legends and lore of the Superstitions, and now I'm seeing that you haven't even gotten your star lit yet.

You are correct in that I have been very blessed with the number of Old Timers, I have been fortunate enough to walk/ride the trails, and share campfires with over the years. In a way I carry a heavy burden with the knowledge, that many of them have gone to their graves, without making public some of the information that they shared with me.

I have lessened that burden somewhat, by sharing some of that information in my stories and articles, on the DUSA Website and in the forums here. Most people read right past those little tid-bits and never recognize them for what they are, while a very small number of others who are searching for the smallest details, will pick up on them right away.

Granted... None of it is going to tell any of us where to put the pick out in the mountains, but is all valuable information for helping to sort out the wheat from the chaff. If you are still stuck in all the chaff, over whether Waltz actually had a mine or not. That explains to me why you are still "On the boarder" about everything else.

I have lived on the cutting edge of Science and Technology for decades myself Paul, and I can tell you first hand, that none of that structured education and experience is going to help you a bit once you step into the realm of the LDM and the Superstition Mountains.

Once you step into that realm, you have to depend on your own common sense and logic to guide you.

I thank God every day for people like Travis and Ashton, who have the courage to form logical conclusions and move on to step 2.

My apologies for this turning into such a long post, and somewhat of a lecture, but I really thought you were a lot farther down the trail than you are. Dump the Bark Notes and the Holmes Manuscript. Get a firm grasp on Ely and Conatser, and take a step forward out of the rut you are in!

Best,

Jim

[cubfan64]

I think you're reading way more into my comments than what was intended. I mentioned that I've come to a number of conclusions that I can't back up in arguments because the "facts" I believe are simply things I can't share for one reason or another. It doesn't mean I haven't formed conclusions, just that I haven't shared what they are because there's no point to arguing a conclusion when I can't share why I have it.

My two comments about Waltz at the end were written tongue in cheek and I apologize if those were intepreted to be the only 2 "conclusions" I've drawn over this time. There are far more things I've come to believe including not giving the Holme's Manuscript (which I didn't even mention) a second thought after the first few times I read it.

I completely understand that you or anyone else for that matter may not feel I'm on to "step two," but I feel confident that I am and I continue to put together information from a multitude of people and documents that I just can't share publicly, but that are leading me to what I hope is closer and closer to places to explore when I get the opportunities.

[Dirty Dutchman]

Jim,

I just happen to be re-reading Conasters Sterling Legend over and if you read pages 29 to 30, It seems she also says it COULD be a mine OR a cache. Now, it sounds like she believes its a mine, but she is at least OPEN to the fact that it could be something else.

I personally believe it's a mine. A very rich mine. Is there "proof" that there could be a mine out there? Yes their is. Is it possible that it could be a cache? Yes it is. And until someone finds it, EVERYONE is correct in their theories.

Paul is very knowledgable on this subject. All one has to do is read his posts to know he takes the subject matter very seriously, and also RESPECTS others theories and conclusions (with maybe one exception ) whether he may agree with them or not.

Being CLOSE-MINDED is the number one reason this mine probably hasnt been found yet, in my humble opinion.

"Someone someday will fit the partS together more successfully than we have done"

thanks,
Travis