The Sterling Legend - By Estee Conatser

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hello,

I skimmed through the book again, and i cannot find what i was looking for. I still think i'm correct though in my theory of this.

"From the mine you can see the Military Trail, but from the Trail, you cannot see the mine"

That, i believe, is the original statement, made by Waltz. It doesnt say WHERE you're supposed to see it. I think Conaster (or her Mentor, or ??) came up with their own conclusion, and that is what we are seeing in Conasters book. They assumed it was in the same Canyon. Again, just my opinion.

After doing some hard-fought research, i found out there were military trails in the Superstitions, and where they were. The information is out there, you just wont find it through any "Dutch Hunters" source. Not that they are posting to the public anyway.


Ashton,

You asked earlier about the "Face". No, there is no Face in my search area. And I dont believe that it's supposed to be there, based on my own research. I said i like Conasters book, i didnt say i think we should consider it "Gospel".


Thanks,
Travis

[AshtonPage]

Nice call Travis,

And sure to spark the beginning of another debate because the way she words it, it could be either her interpretation or her repeating what Waltz told others.

Page 31 “He (Waltz) further identifies it (the correct canyon) by stating that the old military trail runs along the bottom of the canyon and can be seen from the mine.”

Page 32 – (relative to Peter’s Canyon) “requirement must be met: the old military trail must run along the floor of the canyon. It does not! The terrain along the bottom of Peter’s canyon is so rough that it could not possibly support a trail….”

Page 31 sounds like she is telling what Waltz stated. Is this her opinion of what Waltz stated? I will see if I can find more references to the military trail in her book.

Later,
Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Nice call Travis,

And sure to spark the beginning of another debate because the way she words it, it could be either her interpretation or her repeating what Waltz told others.

Page 31 “He (Waltz) further identifies it (the correct canyon) by stating that the old military trail runs along the bottom of the canyon and can be seen from the mine.”

Page 32 – (relative to Peter’s Canyon) “requirement must be met: the old military trail must run along the floor of the canyon. It does not! The terrain along the bottom of Peter’s canyon is so rough that it could not possibly support a trail….”

Page 31 sounds like she is telling what Waltz stated. Is this her opinion of what Waltz stated? I will see if I can find more references to the military trail in her book.

Later,
Ashton

Ashton,

You're probably right, this part could get out of hand.

I read the same part you just quoted, "by stating that...", when i was skimming through the book. I would have second guessed myself, if i hadnt remembered Conasters second paragraph on page 28, "Clues or Camouflage".

"It is DEBATABLE whether or not Walzer actually made these statements......." "Debatable".....crap....

So now where do we go?

This proves my point, to me anyway, that someone, somewhere along the way, put their own ASSUMPTIONS into the clues. Which is the main reason i keep them "simple".

Thanks,
Travis

[Jim Hatt]

Paul, Ashton, Travis...

Well,

I have been painstakingly going through both Ely and Conatser's books for several days now looking for supporting evidence that the LDM is located in a North/South trending canyon as shown on my map, and have come up with nothing.

I am ready to concede that your maps are all more likely to depict the description of the area as described in Conatser's book, than mine is.

Best,

Jim

[AshtonPage]

Jim,

Until one of us comes up with some ore, all that is open to interpretation. And we have seen first-hand how one word can change the entire landscape in this discussion of Estee’s book. It is worth noting that NONE of our maps agreed with each other. My ravine starts out going E-W but then it turns northward. Paul’s map shows a ravine going N-S and Travis’ ravine starts out NNE and then goes NE.

And the truth be told, the map in my personal notes is not the same as the one I posted. I’m not trying to mis-lead anybody, I did exactly what I said I was going to do - my best attempt to draw what I believe Estee intended to describe in her book, but I personally don’t think that she got all her details right. The face looking east was a prime example. But then, I don’t have any gold, so I could be wrong myself.

In any case, as usual, I have learned a lot from this discussion. All I have to do is look back at the notes I made a year ago when I started this adventure and I just shake my head and say to myself “man, I’m glad nobody else sees these.”

Best,
Ashton

[Jim Hatt]

Maybe I never did read anywhere that the LDM exists in a N/S trending canyon, and I came to that conclusion based on my own acceptance of the validity of the following clues.

1 - The face looks east across a Canyon or Ravine towards the mine.

2 - The opening of the mine faces west and the setting sun shines into it.

So... Whether we are talking about a Canyon or a Ravine... A person walking between the face and the mine (which are on opposite side of the canyon or Ravine from each other), would have to be traveling either North or South.

Best,

Jim

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hello,

I know you are still talking about the Canyon direction, and i was going to post this earlier when we were talking about the Military Trail, but i didnt have time. I think now i'm glad i didnt, because i think this is a perfect time to bring it up as it pertains to both.

The Canyon and the Military Trail:

To me, no matter which way the Canyon runs, there is something to me that doesnt make sense. Lets just say the Canyon runs North and South, and the Ravine is like our drawings. (I'll just use Jims for the example)

Lets say the Military Trail was on the Canyon floor, running North and South. And we assume the canyon is NARROW going by Conasters description. Meaning to me that the walls should be at least a little bit HIGH, to make it FEEL narrow enough to use that description. So to me, the Ravine technically should "end" or "drop off" in some sort of cliff, above the Canyon floor. Maybe it's a waterfall during the rain? So that means to me that, if you're standing on the edge of the Ravine, overlooking the Canyon, you would be able to see the Military Trail, with no problem.

Now, the higher and further away you go UP, the less you will see the Military Trail, if the canyon is truly "narrow". Eventually, because the mine is supposed to be "high up", you probably wont be able to see the Military trail at all anymore.

So here's where i'm going with this. COULD that mean that Waltz was HIGH ENOUGH UP to be able to see a Military Trail that was actually located somewhere other than right below him?

Here is the main reason i say this. Hopefully it at least makes us think....

If the Military Trail is in the same Canyon that you're supposed to be "starting" in (North-South trending), then you would have ALREADY BEEN ON the Military Trail, trying to find Waltz Ravine and other landmarks, the ENTIRE time. But Waltz doesnt mention it until your ALREADY AT THE MINE.

You have to ask yourself "why"? Why wouldnt he have said, "Starting at the Military Trail, in a North-South trending Canyon....". To me it's because the Military Trail isnt in the SAME Canyon. It's ONLY VISIBLE, from the Mine itself.

This is what i keep talking about when i say that writers were putting their own assumptions into the clues. Conaster, or whomever told her, ASSUMED it was below them. When we read their books, we "take on" their assumptions as being the truth. When all we really have to do, is think logically, and realize that Waltz NEVER mentions it until he's already at the Mine, and there HAS to be a reason. The reason to me is, you're NOWHERE NEAR the Military Trail when you're at the Mine.

I could be totally off here but, i look forward to your responses. Let's see who thinks i'm totally off my Rocker!

Thanks,
Travis

[AshtonPage]

Travis,

It’s also possible that the military trail runs through an intersecting canyon and you can see the junction where the military trail runs though – from above at the mine.

I think Estee made a conscious effort not to inject her own opinions into her book. That does not mean however that her sources made the same effort to keep the story uncontaminated with their opinions \ conclusions. She tells her readers in the preface of The Sterling Legend:

“In my initial research years ago, I was appalled by the total disregard of some writers in keeping what few meager facts there were concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine separated from their own personal suppositions, assumptions, and in some instances, down-right tall tales……. The suppositions and assumptions of others can be helpful can be helpful when dealing with a subject of this nature, but ONLY when they are presented as such.”

The caps on “only” appear in her book, I did not add them in. I believe she is honest, and I believe she is telling the story as it was told to her (key point).

Ashton

[AshtonPage]

Jim,

Now that you mention it – the one thing all our maps all agree on is the canyon runs N-S at the location of the mine.

Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Travis,

It’s also possible that the military trail runs through an intersecting canyon and you can see the junction where the military trail runs though – from above at the mine.

I think Estee made a conscious effort not to inject her own opinions into her book. That does not mean however that her sources made the same effort to keep the story uncontaminated with their opinions \ conclusions. She tells her readers in the preface of The Sterling Legend:

“In my initial research years ago, I was appalled by the total disregard of some writers in keeping what few meager facts there were concerning the Lost Dutchman Mine separated from their own personal suppositions, assumptions, and in some instances, down-right tall tales……. The suppositions and assumptions of others can be helpful can be helpful when dealing with a subject of this nature, but ONLY when they are presented as such.”

The caps on “only” appear in her book, I did not add them in. I believe she is honest, and I believe she is telling the story as it was told to her (key point).

Ashton

Ashton,

You could be 100% correct about your ASSUMPTIONS about the Military Trail. But the Military Trails location isnt what i'm debating at this time. I'm saying that she DID inject her own theory into it. (Or at least whoever she got the info from, etc.)

In Conasters book, she clearly ASSUMES the Military Trail is in the bottom of the Canyon below the Mine. She even includes a picture pointing to the her Military trail in her book.

What i was getting at is, Waltz doesnt mention it until he is AT THE MINE. There had to be a reason for that. Again, to me, youre no where near the Military Trail, when you're at the mine. If it were where Conaster ASSUMED it was, you would be on it the entire time until you got to the mine. That is not the case, according to how she "delivers" the clues to us, in her book. Thats what i was trying to get at.

Thanks again,
Travis