I Must Be A Magnet...

[Plays In The Dirt]

Or I have "Inquiring Minds Want To Know" stamped on my forehead. The reason I say this is because it seems that no matter where I go someone brings-up the topic of the environment, and today was no exception.

Now for a different perspective, and one Dan has expressed here quite often. I stopped-in our local Napa store, (yes I'm home for awhile), and was talking to my friend who runs it. Out of the clear-blue in our conversation he began talking about environmentalists. He's really fired-up about it! He said that the current environmental groups are doing more harm than good, and that they are doing more across the globe to create our switch to a totalitarian form of government than anything, or anyone else. They are ruining our country. Now as I mentioned above, Dan has pointed this out repeatedly through-out his posts here on DUSA. Now this conversation got me to thinking about how true this really is in many respects. While I do feel that we must take care of our planet, we must also be allowed to be creative and to use our natural resources to our benefit. When we use them wisely, it also tends to be beneficial in the long run. But now someone define wisely. I'm not back-peddling here as I do feel that there's a huge difference between using our resources for our benefit, and tearing-up the landscape with OHV's. The latter is a recreation, and the only benefit to mankind is to those who use them.

Now in keeping with being fair, how could I show through Photography how wrong a lot of the environmental movements are on many things?

[Ken@WonderValley]

Maybe something like this. Phil Klasky Community ORV Watch (COW)

[Goldseeker]

If you ever see anyone doing that to OUR flag, I STRONGLY suggest you beat the s*** out of them on the spot. Can you immagine the outcry from the liberal media if someone did something like that to the koran, why, that would be "insensitive", "hateful" and "racist" Why O why is there no outcry when this is done to our flag? How many soldiers have died, been permanetly dis-abled, emotionally scared for life, defending our country and flag? This is an outrage. Personally, if I ever see that live, its on, and I mean right now.

I challenge this dastardly group to come here into 29 Palms and stage this flag desecration, I am sure all the marines here will undoubtedly respect your *right* to do this. I just know they will, especially those who have lost friends in Iraq. I suggest doing this on Adobe road, say about a half-mile from the main gate. Let this klasky jacka** tell them about his *rights*. Come on, they are waiting for you, Klasky, you s*b.

[Dan]

WOW! Goldseeker is FIRED UP!

While I understand the sentiment, and agree that these people are likely stepping over the line as to what constitutes hate speech and unnecessary incitement to fight, I think it might take a bit more for me to pop one of them on the beak.......like a shove. I'd definitely get in their faces. It's one thing to be members of the loyal opposition. But what they are doing is encouraging revolution and undermining of our democratic principles. They are admitted communists, not simply disgruntled capitalists or citizens of a democracy. The ironic thing is that in anything but a democratic republic, they would likely be arrested for what they are doing, at best. Shot, at worst.

As for images of what enviros are doing, it's hard to get a picture of tyranny and subversive activities. By their nature, these things tend to be well hidden and characterized as something else, and it's generally not a visual thing anyway. A court case brought for phony reasons, a bogus listing of a species because of an ulterior motive, or manipulation of the legislative process, short-circuiting the democratic process in a dangerous game of undue political influence and quid pro quo.

Appeals to oppose environmental groups and their undue influence on, and damage to, our society are usually in the form of verbal or written argument. Early, they received virtually no resistance to their meddling in our legal and legislative processes. Today, there is significant resistance and criticism, and they don't much care for it. Here is an example of the sort of reaction they have when reasoned and educated people resist their agenda:

http://newsbusters.org/node/14083

[Goldseeker]

Actually Dan, to me personally, it would be a sin to let something like that go by, without taking action. People like that make me sick. They should all be arrested. Seriousley. I meant what I said. Try it here you commie bast**ds. Just try it. Go ahead. You first Klasky. Tell them its your 1st ammendment right. Better yet, try doing it to my flag.

[Dan]

Exactly why I typically characterize the people with whom I disagree and have a very low level of respect, as "radical environmentalists" and "modern environmental groups" or "today's environmental groups". I think we're mostly in agreement, mbender, except that I consider most of today's environmental groups to be mostly fund raising and political advocacy groups. The problem I have with that? Besides the fact that I vehemently disagree with their politics and their abuse of our legal and legislative systems, it is highly illegal for a 501(c)3 tax-exempt organization to initiate or participate in political advocacy. Most of today's environmental groups and their supporting foundations are registered as 501(c)3 organizations. The purpose is so that these organizations won't use tax-exempt money for political campaigns. That's a joke.

They clog up our court system with frivolous litigation designed to supplant their inability to get their full agenda enacted legislatively. They pay huge sums of money for political campaigns, almost exclusively for liberal candidates who in turn support environmental causes that DO get through the legislature (and many that don't), they display the finger toward our tax laws, and they deliberately spread dis-information about their political enemies. They file lawsuits under ESA specifically so taxpayers will be forced to pay their expenses, plus a healthy profit, out of the Treasury. They seek to force the United States to subjugate its Constitution and system of laws to those of the international community, and the United Nations, under the guise of "international law" through all manner of means such as the Kyoto Treaty. And they are now using otherwise un-involved citizens groups as front men because the public is getting wise to the disinformation campaigns they have sponsored in the past, in huge attempts to derail our individual liberties and hand themselves the power to decide whether all other human economic activities should be allowed to continue.

Other than that, they aren't radical and they aren't destroying our society.

[Plays In The Dirt]

PITD,
It's a fair question. I can understand the frustration behind the phrase "the current environmental groups," but this lumps them all unfairly into the same basket. Some of them are extremists, at least in my opinion, but most of the ones I'm familiar with just want a healthy environment for them, their children, and future generations. It is no more accurate or fair to characterize all environmentalists as extremists as it would be to characterize all OHV users as extremists. I made this point over and over on this forum until I gave up trying to reason with closed minds. You, on the other hand, have always struck me as a fair person with an open mind, so I'm trying once more.

Point well taken "mbender," and I have to agree with your logic. The thing is, the loudest bark gets the most attention so the extremists stand-out. I do not wish for everything to be closed to access, and I feel we should, No Must, use our natural resources for the betterment of human existence with as much minimal damage as possible. But we must use them. OHV racers need their place to play in areas set aside for that type of use. I'm certain there are extremists on both sides of the issue, some of them you can see writing here.

It's good to see fresh voices here on this forum so welcome back.

[Sandman]

Looking at this photo, Mr Klasky clearly is not stepping on the flag, nor is he part of the protest that occurred at his place of employment, San Fransisco State University.


It appears that Mr Klasky is reading the words that were written on the flag.


Freedom of speech is a Constitutional right. The political statement these protesters are making was against the Bush administration's trampling of the Constitution with the kidnap and rendition of people worldwide that they suspected of having a connection to Al Quaida with no formal charges being filed against them.

While some of the people held in Guantanamo are guilty of the horrific crimes that occurred on 9/11/2001, many of the individuals held and denied habeas corpus were later released after it was discovered they were innocent.

What I find troublesome is the intentional campaign of malicious libel and slander waged by some individuals. If they are outraged at the content of the protest and wish to express their feelings against the men in orange jumpsuits, it is their right to do so but to twist this event into something that is is not is clearly a campaign of hate and retaliation against Mr Klasky for taking a stand against the lawless behavior of illegal oHV riders. Protecting private property from unauthorized OHv trespass is about as far from communism as you can get. In reality, it is the illegal OHV users siezure of private property for public use that smacks of communism.


Take a look at the photo again. Is Mr Klasky stomping on the flag? No..... All he said on the video was "let him speak". Isn't freedom of speech a Constitutional right? And for this he is branded a "Communist"?



Did former President Bush trash our Constitution and deny free citizens of the world habeas corpus? When there are no charges, no evidence presented or a fair and just trial, then justice is denied. Water boarding is torture and that is a fact. That is what the REAL issue is. The United States of America has long been a beacon of hope and justice in the world promoting human rights and freedoms......or at least it was until the Bush Administration started kidnapping people, holding them in secret detention facilities on foreign soil and using torture techniques like water boarding, sleep deprivation and intense sound exposure.

Ken Piel and his associates own Phil Klasky and apology in my opinion. Clearly, their campaign of hate is in direct retaliation for Mr Klasky's voice of reason to encourage responsible OHV use in appropriate legal venues. Our rural residential neighborhoods are not OHV tracks any more that the surbuban streets of Orange county where Mr Piel resides.

[Plays In The Dirt]

I find it interesting that those who live in the big cities feel they should have so much input and control in to the feelings - wants - desires of the people who live in rural communities and to the problems they face in their communities.

[Kevin]

No such problems here where I am at Sandman / PITD.

Peace,

Kevin