Native American history within the Superstitions discussion

[somehiker]

Injunbro:

There are many ancient ruins throughout the mountains.
Most have been identified as Salado or Hohokam by the archaeologists,and include those at Tonto Nat. Monument and Rogers Canyon.Their accomplishments as stonemasons,and Joe's "markers" may have been one such example, are varied and well documented.Other similar cave dwellings exist in alcoves,some perhaps unknown as yet,which may eventually indicate the presence of another culture as well.All of whom had left the area long before the Yavapai or Apache migration to the area.
It also seems as though the migrants left these sites undisturbed,not utilizing any of the artifacts within or even using the ruins for temporary shelter.Same goes for the Navajo,Pima,Aravapai,et al,with regards to the many similar,frequently much more extensive ruins in their own territories.

Am I correct in the assumption that to have done so would have been "bad medicine" ?
What were their beliefs (Yavapai/Apache) in the origins of these ruins,and the people who left them behind ?

Regards:SH.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

I believe the Black ladies name was Celeste Marie Jones & her people were pretty much @ war W/ Ed Piper & traded shots occaisionally. If my memory serves Piper had to shoot one of them in defense. It was said she blasted part of the top off Weavers Needle while trying to recover Jesuit treasure & was ran off soon afterwards.
The times the Apaches wanted no one around would have to do w/ their ceramonies & reveal the locations of caves where they believe they came up from the 'underworld'. Although I know where this area is & where the ceramonies are held & religous items kept I won't discuss it further out of respect to those who still believe in the old ways. I'm a Christian but still respect their beliefs. I personally believe this is when the quit being 'cave men' & became nomadic raiders but respect other folks right to believe any way they want as long as they don't harm others.

Injunbro,

You are correct about Celeste Jones, but I don't believe she ever found any treasure. The story I heard was that she blasted away an alabaster cross that was embedded in Weaver's Needle.

I don't believe there is any one place of emergence for the Apache people, as a whole. What seems to be the norm, is that each band or group has there own story.

Since we are talking about the Superstition Mountains here, the only historically known Apache to live in the mountains, as a tribe, were the Tonto. They, basically, were composed of the Northern and Southern Tonto. Those two groups were further divided into six sub-groups....possibly seven.

In addition, the Tonto who were living alongside the Yavapai intermarried with them and both sides melded into a single tribe, in many cases. When that happens, many of the legends and beliefs also became mixed. The Yavapai believe that the place of emergence was Montezuma Wells.

The Tonto believed they came from a place far to the north of where they lived prior to reservation life. That would seem to eliminate the Superstitions as their place of emergence. Others believe a mountain in the San Juan's of Colorado is that place.

I don't believe there is any Apache interest or ceremonies in the Superstitions as a sacred place, even though all places on the earth are considered sacred to them. This in spite of the stories in Helen Corbin's book, provided by someone who turned out to be a wanna-be Apache. In that respect, I believe he is no different than the, so called, Quero Apache.

Just my unqualified opinions based on the small amount of research I have done over the years.

Take care,

Joe

[somehiker]

Joe:

Are we to understand that you no longer have any belief in the "Black Legion",sacred site monitors,or the implied (and ominous) warning inferred by clumps of rabbit fur and raven feathers ?

Injunbro:

Speaking of feathers.

Could I assume that an agave stalk laid across an opening in the rocks,through which I would have to pass in order to reach the top of a bluff,to be something left behind by an Apache ?
It had 4 feathers....looked like quail to me...tied to the center with a clump of coloured wool yarn.

Regards:SH.

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

Joe:

Are we to understand that you no longer have any belief in the "Black Legion",sacred site monitors,or the implied (and ominous) warning inferred by clumps of rabbit fur and raven feathers ?

Injunbro:

Speaking of feathers.

Could I assume that an agave stalk laid across an opening in the rocks,through which I would have to pass in order to reach the top of a bluff,to be something left behind by an Apache ?
It had 4 feathers....looked like quail to me...tied to the center with a clump of coloured wool yarn.

Regards:SH.

Wayne,

That's a very good question. Don't actually have a good answer. If pressed, I would venture a guess that there are, or have been, people in those mountains that have gone to fairly extreme lengths to protect areas which they considered important to them.

While I can't vouch for Ernie's story, I do know what I personally witnessed. Were those two guys Apache???? I can't swear they were. On the other hand, they were Indian......for sure. Perhaps they were Yavapai.

As for your question to Injunbro........I know for a fact that a certain wanna-be Apache created many "Apache" artifacts that were as phony as he was. He did his best to convince many people, including Bob Corbin, that he was meeting with his Apache friends for "secret" ceremonies in the Superstitions.

Others have created Apache and Spanish/Mexican artifacts and symbols in the Supe's for many years. At a guess, they did it for ego (I found it) or to mislead and confuse others.

Once again, most of that is just my unqualified opinion.

Take care,

Joe

[gollum]

Joe and Injunbro,

You were both correct about Celeste Jones. Thanks again to Joe for introducing me to the person that knew her as well as anyone still living.

Joe's friend/source is one of those few that I consider to be beyond reproach. Ed Piper got into a Western Style gunfight with Robert Ste. Marie. The much older Piper dropped to his knee as he drew his pistol. He killed Ste. Marie with one shot.

Marie, as "Bob" calls her claimed to have found a cache of golden crucifixes in a cave on Weaver's Needle (there is zero proof of any crosses recovered anywhere by Jones' Crew). She also claimed to have found a large piece of alabaster with a cross engraved on it. She claimed to have blasted that cross trying to find the main treasure cave. Her main claim was that as a minister in a church in Los Angeles, she was given special information in her dreams. She claimed to have been shown a map that referenced a tunnel under the entire Superstition Mountain Range (from North to South). This tunnel ran right underneath Weaver's Needle, which was also the location of a secret entrance to this tunnel. Joe's friend stayed close friends with Jones, and kept grubstaking her, until she asked him and a man that worked for him to help her find someone to kill Ed Piper. He never looked at Jones the same way again. After that incident, he stopped giving her money, and kept his distance from her.

A very odd chapter in Superstition History.

Mike

[cubfan64]

Joe and Injunbro,

You were both correct about Celeste Jones. Thanks again to Joe for introducing me to the person that knew her as well as anyone still living.

Joe's friend/source is one of those few that I consider to be beyond reproach. Ed Piper got into a Western Style gunfight with Robert Ste. Marie. The much older Piper dropped to his knee as he drew his pistol. He killed Ste. Marie with one shot.

Marie, as "Bob" calls her claimed to have found a cache of golden crucifixes in a cave on Weaver's Needle (there is zero proof of any crosses recovered anywhere by Jones' Crew). She also claimed to have found a large piece of alabaster with a cross engraved on it. She claimed to have blasted that cross trying to find the main treasure cave. Her main claim was that as a minister in a church in Los Angeles, she was given special information in her dreams. She claimed to have been shown a map that referenced a tunnel under the entire Superstition Mountain Range (from North to South). This tunnel ran right underneath Weaver's Needle, which was also the location of a secret entrance to this tunnel. Joe's friend stayed close friends with Jones, and kept grubstaking her, until she asked him and a man that worked for him to help her find someone to kill Ed Piper. He never looked at Jones the same way again. After that incident, he stopped giving her money, and kept his distance from her.

A very odd chapter in Superstition History.

Mike

It's interesting to read through the transcripts from Ed Piper's trial where he was subsequently found not guilty (self defense) for his killing of Ste. Marie. Celeste Jones accused him of all sorts of stuff and made so many contradictory statements in a blatant attempt to get Piper found guilty, and the defense just kept exposing all the stuff she was telling as being lies.

She was definitely a strange one and certainly had a strong hatred for Ed Piper.

[roc2rol]

Would these Ed Piper trial transcript be online ?
In some book?
Thanks in advance
rec

[cubfan64]

It's been a couple years since I read them, but I think Greg Davis had a copy.

I would guess it wouldn't be too hard to get copies from the court system. Give me a little time and I'll see what I can find, and if I have any luck, I'll post them here.

Paul

[i-tsari-tsu-i]

All,

Speaking of books, I received a pleasant surprise in yesterdays mail. Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart sent me a copy of their new book, "Superstition Wilderness Trails West: Hikes, Horse Rides, & History".

As usual, their latest effort is informative & packaged in a slick soft cover. Just about any nimrod (used in the least complimentary terms) could find his way through the Supe's with their book and a decent knowledge of his GPS.

Once again, Jack and Elizabeth have done a great service to all users of the Superstition Wilderness Area.

You get: "More than 65 trip descriptions help you explore the Wilderness--aided by maps, GPS coordinates, photographs, and history of prospectors and ranchers."

Their last book covered the trails in the eastern portion of the range.
Cost is $16.95

Take care,

Joe

[silent hunter]

Joe
Why not read from first hand accounts?? You always pay so much $ for your book. History is free!....maybe not read as well as one of your books.....enough said...Check out the Mormon history. True accounts that may help you in your hunt for the knowledge of the Great Red man. You can find attempts at taking a Census including the Superstition Mountain Range. Guess What? There is even a map of the road (Trail if you may) from Fort Mcdowell to Florence Juntion? Good Luck


Kurt Painter