DID WALTZ LIE TO JULIA AND RHINEY???

[babymick1]

Interesting

Was the Dr. Thorne tale well known pre Julia?
What is the (year) first documented resource of it?
roc

Roc

I believe the Doc Thorne story was told around 1850's
So I,m sure Julia could have heard of the story.

Babymick1

[roc2rol]

thanks mick
seems I get my Dr. Thorne
confued with the doctor
who took care Weiser
another tale that must of been pre Julia ?
roc

[alan m]

There is the possibility that the story of Dr Thornes gold does not apply to the Lost Dutchman at all
Sims Ely is not explicit about it and Dr Thornes clues do not mesh with others
Also there is some confusion as to which peak he saw
In elys book it is stated that it was the peak like the organ of a stallion, many take this to be Weavers Needle but as Mrs Oroblanco has pointed out it could very well be a small peak at Pickett post mountain
Other accounts of the Thorne story claim it was four peaks that he saw
Alan

[AshtonPage]

Hi Alan

According to Clay Worst’s DVD presentation -> Doc Thorne told his story to a man named C.E. Cooley, who then assembled a small army of men to search for the Lost Thorne mine. One of the men in the search party was Jacob Waltz. When Cooley’s group failed to locate the mine, Waltz went back in on his own to look for the lost mine.

IF this is true, it could give us a probable location where Waltz began his search and would also tell us the approximate area that Waltz should have been searching in. Some people say that Clay’s story is just that – a story. Whether that’s true or not, it presents an interesting possibility that Waltz may (or may not) have been part of the Thorne expedition. That would be something worth finding out IMHO.

Best,
Ashton

[somehiker]

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/ha ... div.3.html

"In July, 1869, Banta, with C. E. Cooley and Henry Wood Dodd, organized an expedition to look for the Doc Thorn Mines. They had with them a few Coyotero Indians for protection and guidance. Before they left the Indian village, Captain Cressy, of the 3rd U. S. Cavalry, stationed at new Fort Wingate, with a detachment of soldiers and a guide, was sent over to inspect the outfits of the three prospectors, which he did on the morning of their departure, July 12th, 1869. The purpose of this inspection was to prevent illicit traffic in arms and ammunition with hostile Indians.

Says Mr. Banta: ‘‘“Of our three selves, each one had his pet object in the consummation of this most remarkable expedition and wild goose chase, viz.: Cooley was for seeking the Doc Thorn placers, in the existence of which he was a firm believer; Dodd to escape, for a time at least, his oldtime and implacable enemy, John Barleycorn; the writer, at that time being young and full of the Quixote spirit for adventure, and not caring a tinker's wink where he went or didn't went, simply went along as a matter of course; anything for adventure and the glad, free life in the open.’’ "

[alan m]

I do not think that Clay would spin a yarn about tha LDM being that he hates the bull and how it has made finding the mine that much more difficult
As for taking place in 1869, doesn't that place it prior to when Waltz is supposed to have found the mine? It was around 1876 if I recall correctly
As for the Thorne location being at Pickett post mountain Ely is clear that Thorne believes he crossed the Salt river numerous times
The Salt crossing would be quite different than the Gila
Also the peak at Pickett post is obscured by the mountain itself unless you are right near its base
Alan

[roc2rol]

Thanks for posting the Farrish account!

I’m reading Estee Conaster account of Dr. Thorne
She’s pretty thorough on the legend. But no documentation.
I’m disappointed she doesn’t reference the Farrish account
I forgot that Farrish had that entry !
This definelty establishes that the tale
(at least orally)
was known pre-Julia.

Estee makes the comment::
‘First, Thorne, himself, was not positive
the Indians took him into the Superstition Mountains. “ page 20-21
Unfortunately, she doesn’t give any footnotes
where does she gleams any of this information?
Documentation. Very important.
This is what I seek
roc

[alan m]

Did Thorne depart from fort McDowell or from fort wingate?
I dont even know where fort wingate was located
Or did Thorne depart from an Indian village and if so which one?
The Thorne narrative reads like a fairytale to me
Alan m

[roc2rol]

Estee certainly speaks of the Dr. Thorne tale in skeptical terms
well... maybe... skeptical not the right word
but she takes pain to admit that the tale
is so woolly that it hard to verify any of the facts.
Yet, she seems sure that a Dr. Thorne ‘did sell an
(undetermined) amount of gold in San Franscico’ page 20.
For an amount of $5,000!
Plus she pretty adamant that this same Thorne
hunted for gold around the Superstition Mountains.
Well again I have seen no documentation
and that’s thorn in my side.
roc

[roc2rol]

after reading the Banta-Cooley-Dodd
(hereafter to be known as BCD)
in the History of Arizona
it is very doubtful
that Jacob Waltz was part of the party
In other words: no BCDW
certainly seeking documentation
to prove my speculation wrong

And

concerning the Farrish writings
-which are authoritive & thorough accounts -
He lists the early settlers and lot number of the original town site
Extensive list. The Starr Bros andmany others.
But no mention of Jacob Waltz homestead!!
I find this strange.

If Jacob was half as notorious in early Phoenix
as he is portrayed in many writings
he should have been mentioned. No?

Anyone have theory on this over sight?

roc