The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

[somehiker]

That's another truth now, isn't it !
And no question that RG set out with the intention of "debunking" certain conclusions made by some of the researchers and writers who had shared the stories and what they themselves had heard about/personally discovered, seen, and experienced first hand via their own interest in the Tumlinson and Mitchell Stone Maps.
Nothing wrong with that, because it's always been the truths and falses and new ideas which have driven the topic down the road as far as it has gone. He's not the first to delete his posts, or entire discussion threads, too often taking down far more informative comments and conclusions from other contributors in the process, or even the first to lock us out of entire discussions in a petulant fit of insecurity. It's a pattern we are all too familiar with....

Best:Wayne

[jhowlett]

Wayne As this thing has progressed on with Ryan it seems to be the case. For one thing If the SOJ knows so dam much why the hell don't they go get their candle holders, them self selves, they have had a 350 year head start on everyone. The present day SOJ must believe like Ryan that the stones have nothing to do with their storage locker, that they are waiting to reclaim, and that the LDM and the Mexican have nothing to do
with anything, they must be pretty dumb Jesuits they can't even read their own maps. The end of the road all leads to a common site worked by all of them. Two things appear to be a fact 1. Tumlinson while having a connection to the stones did not ever deceiver them.2. The Jesuits forgot how to read maps. It is all there in one place and yes the dam LATINSTONE FITS, known mater who the hell or when the hell or hoe in the hell it got to be. The treasure sits where the stone fits. Jeff.

[Joe Ribaudo]

It seems to me, the question for Ryan's project is, has be pissed-off enough fans of the Stone Map legend, between DUSA and TNet, to hurt sales down the road? There were a whole lot of people that could have been hawking his product for him. I was one for awhile, but those days are over.

Outside of Dutch Hunters, are there that many people who are familiar with the Stone Map story?

Joe Ribaudo

[somehiker]

Joe:

While I think we would all like to see a comprehensive TV series or good docudrama about this saga, and no doubt enjoy the pro-con discussions it would generate within the community, we are not and probably shouldn't be the target audience. There aren't enough of us who, since at least as far back as 1964 have followed the story and participated in it via research and discussion, to fill seats in a single movie theater, let alone to spend the kind of cash that would allow RG to recoup the tens of thousands which he has claims he has spent so far on his project.
And of course, this applies to any backers who may have loaned him money as well, in the belief that he or they will be able to produce a product that will generate the ratings growth necessary to attract the kind of advertising revenue that makes or breaks any TV entertainment.
But as a "test market", it's easily seen that he's not getting anywhere near the critical acclaim he expected from us, regardless of which side of the fence each of us stands on. And that he's not happy about it, as proven by his posturing, deletions of posts, etc. Could also be that he's getting negative feedback from the people and organizations he claims to be working with, if they happen to be following these debates, which they should be IMO.

Regards:Wayne

[Matthew Roberts]

somehiker,

When Clarence Mitchell and Richard Stolley collaborated to write the June 12, 1964 Life Magazine article about the Stone Maps, the Stone Maps popularity went world-wide and Mitchell (Marlowe) received letters from almost every US State, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Austria, Italy and even Japan. The interest was sensational because Life Magazine was a trusted, top rate world-wide publication. Anyone wishing to get that same kind of attention today needs that same type of power behind them. The Stone Map and LDM Legends are not dead nor are they local, they are just lacking a proper publicity source to re-generate the same kind of interest the Life article did in 1964.

The “New” Tumlinson story is having a bumpy ride not because the “New” Tumlinson family doesn’t have an interesting story to tell, it’s because of the WAY the “New” story is being set up and pitched to anyone who will listen.

The scoarched Earth policy of calling half of everyone connected with the original Stone Map story; liars, scammers, thieves and criminals and stating that the original SM story is all BS lies and the Tumlinson’s had nothing to do with it is patently false and it throws the Tumlinson family in the worst possible light.

You would think this would be obvious but apparently no one connected with this “New” story has realized that fact yet.

The big problem for RMG and the Tumlinson’s is that too many people outside the family were directly involved and connected with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps from 1949 – 1961. That is a problem that apparently is being solved by calling every one of those people, liars, scammers and criminals. Sorry RMG and Tumlinson’s but that just isn’t true and isn’t going to fly. Travis Tumlinson was not operating out of a vaccum from 1949-1961, there are letters, photos and documents outside Travis's family that have been around for 60 years.

To tell the “New” story the slate apparently has to be wiped clean and a whole “New” set of facts presented. No one wants to hear an old story, with old well known characters, and old well known maps and diagrams.
I don’t have a problem in the world with the Tumlinson’s telling this “New” story. I wish all of them well and I hope they tell their story and reach and surpass any goals they may have set for themselves.

My only concern is in the process they somehow feel they have to tell falsehoods, spread misinformation and rumor/lies about some good people who just happened to become involved with Travis Tumlinson from 1949-1961.

Matthew Roberts

[Joe Ribaudo]

Joe:

While I think we would all like to see a comprehensive TV series or good docudrama about this saga, and no doubt enjoy the pro-con discussions it would generate within the community, we are not and probably shouldn't be the target audience. There aren't enough of us who, since at least as far back as 1964 have followed the story and participated in it via research and discussion, to fill seats in a single movie theater, let alone to spend the kind of cash that would allow RG to recoup the tens of thousands which he has claims he has spent so far on his project.
And of course, this applies to any backers who may have loaned him money as well, in the belief that he or they will be able to produce a product that will generate the ratings growth necessary to attract the kind of advertising revenue that makes or breaks any TV entertainment.
But as a "test market", it's easily seen that he's not getting anywhere near the critical acclaim he expected from us, regardless of which side of the fence each of us stands on. And that he's not happy about it, as proven by his posturing, deletions of posts, etc. Could also be that he's getting negative feedback from the people and organizations he claims to be working with, if they happen to be following these debates, which they should be IMO.

Regards:Wayne

Wayne,

Good to hear from you and I hope all is well for you.

I agree with you but my point is, can they afford to alienate the folks who could hawk the product with the most authority. While the last effort at this sort of thing was entertaining, I don't think they could find the sponsors for a second season.

Ryan made statements and claims of evidence to me, while trying to get me to come on board, that I asked for some proof of their validity. That was where he got excited and loud and that's where our contacts came to an end.

I am unsure why he tried so hard to get my public approval, considering his doubts about my knowledge and experience. As I mentioned to him, he came to me, not the other way around. In my opinion, he reacted to my questioning his "evidence" like a petulant little girl. No need to show me anything, unless you are trying hard to get me on a team. He turned someone who was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, into a vocal opponent.
_________________________________________

Re: Twenty-Sixteen
Report this post
Postby RMG1976 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:17 am
Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Matthew,

Have to agree with deducer here. That was a very good post. There should never be a problem with questioning someone's "facts". Of course you should remember that asking questions of someone considered an expert, is what got me banned from this site. I assume you do remember that thread.

Good to see you posting. I still consider you an expert on many subjects.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo



I have no desire or intention to ban anyone for disagreeing with me. However, other moderators have certainly viewed you as some sort of trouble.....or you wouldn't have been banned.

I do fully agree, and support, that anyone ....at any time....has the right to dispute things. Argue and take things to a low level - no...that won't be supported. There are professional and amiable ways to have conversations....and so far, with the exception of one other poster on here, I feel that has always been the case.

Except for the phone call you and I had, where you were so offensive....so demanding....and acting like you are the "king" of everything Superstitions......and that you insisted that I needed to prove something to you, is where things get ugly. I have nothing to prove to anyone. My story is the story of Travis Tumlinson, using his words, his documents and his research, which made him the most successful land based treasure hunter in the country.

That phone call with you will prove to be one of my favorite memories of my journey with this story. Joe came up to me, hearing me on the phone, and asked who was being such an ass to me. That is when I handed the phone to him, so he could talk to you and cool you down.

If you agree or disagree with those facts, is up to you.....but its not a bit of worry from my side, to gain your or anyone else's approval.

Remember....words on a screen can be read 1000 different ways.
___________________________________________________________________

The "King of everything Superstitions" are many. Tom K., Clay Worst, Greg Davis, Matthew Roberts, The Feldman's, Bob and Helen Corbin and Dr. Thomas Glover. There are many others, like them, who have forgotten more than I will ever know about the Superstitions and their many legends. I have always maintained that, and actively sought friendships with many of those people.

Take care,

Joe

[somehiker]

Hi Jeff:

I doubt the SJ are as involved to the extent claimed. We only have Ryan's word on that aspect, and so far, his words keep changing with every "update".
The question you ask has been raised many times by both factions, those who believe in Jesuit treasure and those who don't. We do know that during the Pima uprising of 1751, a "date" inscribed on one of the Stone Crosses, and Apache raids on Jesuit missions both before and after that date, many missions were looted of their devotional and sacred objects. Some of this booty, being of little use to the raiders, may have been left behind in whatever caves were used for shelter or caches by them during those times....perhaps even in the Pinal Mtns. and Superstitions. Neither the Jesuits, nor the Vatican would therefore know where these places were located, but it's certainly possible that prospectors, cowboys, treasure hunters, or even casual hobby hikers have found some of them during the intervening years. But unless these finds were publicized, the SJ would have no way of knowing about them.
Of any that WERE made public, and featured items recognized by experts within the SJ as genuine artifacts lost prior to their expulsion from the new world, I think it's safe to say that they would find a way to contact the discoverer(s) for further information.

BUT....if someone were to contact either the Vatican, or the SJ with a few items they claimed were discovered in a cache somewhere, and there happened to be a record of these things having actually been stolen from a church in modern times and never recovered, I'm sure they would also be very interested in recovering what is theirs. Knowing that the theft occurred decades ago, perhaps during the dirty thirties, they could also assume some co-operation might be required on their part in order to locate where the thieves might have stashed the balance. They couldn't after all, rely on any apprehension and confession from the crooks themselves, who had long since passed away.

Regards:SH.

[babymick1]

Yes Gentlemen,

It seams if it's not RG's Idea it's not gonna go, Period!
Little fella needs to grow up a wee bit.
And I'm quite sure he has no money invested of his own
People like him are just plain Scammers, Crooks and Thieves.
Only using he's own words, That he uses to describe others.
Now RG your welcome to post here but you will not be deleting
Any post as it's the norm on your Thread.

So post it here little boy if you dare!

Babymick1

[somehiker]

somehiker,

When Clarence Mitchell and Richard Stolley collaborated to write the June 12, 1964 Life Magazine article about the Stone Maps, the Stone Maps popularity went world-wide and Mitchell (Marlowe) received letters from almost every US State, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Austria, Italy and even Japan. The interest was sensational because Life Magazine was a trusted, top rate world-wide publication. Anyone wishing to get that same kind of attention today needs that same type of power behind them. The Stone Map and LDM Legends are not dead nor are they local, they are just lacking a proper publicity source to re-generate the same kind of interest the Life article did in 1964.

The “New” Tumlinson story is having a bumpy ride not because the “New” Tumlinson family doesn’t have an interesting story to tell, it’s because of the WAY the “New” story is being set up and pitched to anyone who will listen.

The scoarched Earth policy of calling half of everyone connected with the original Stone Map story; liars, scammers, thieves and criminals and stating that the original SM story is all BS lies and the Tumlinson’s had nothing to do with it is patently false and it throws the Tumlinson family in the worst possible light.

You would think this would be obvious but apparently no one connected with this “New” story has realized that fact yet.

The big problem for RMG and the Tumlinson’s is that too many people outside the family were directly involved and connected with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps from 1949 – 1961. That is a problem that apparently is being solved by calling every one of those people, liars, scammers and criminals. Sorry RMG and Tumlinson’s but that just isn’t true and isn’t going to fly. Travis Tumlinson was not operating out of a vaccum from 1949-1961, there are letters, photos and documents outside Travis's family that have been around for 60 years.

To tell the “New” story the slate apparently has to be wiped clean and a whole “New” set of facts presented. No one wants to hear an old story, with old well known characters, and old well known maps and diagrams.
I don’t have a problem in the world with the Tumlinson’s telling this “New” story. I wish all of them well and I hope they tell their story and reach and surpass any goals they may have set for themselves.

My only concern is in the process they somehow feel they have to tell falsehoods, spread misinformation and rumor/lies about some good people who just happened to become involved with Travis Tumlinson from 1949-1961.

Matthew Roberts

Good post Matt !
And I concur with everything you just said, and the way you put it. In part, because we have the documented testimonies of so many who DID have direct contact with Travis, his wife and his uncle during that period, or of those who interviewed them while their memories were fresh.In fact, on re-examination of some of those letters, along with the other materials that have been available to all of us for many years, I'm beginning to see a far more direct relationship, including a partnership between Travis and Mitchell, that even Mitchell kept mostly to himself for some reason. I'll elaborate on this in more detail later, with copies of, or links to what I believe is good evidence for this and why .
One piece of evidence for this that I'll take from my list and ask you about now, is in regards to Travis' manuscript.
I believe you once said you had read an "unfinished" copy of the book.
If so, did his story sound like something meant to deceive it's readers, as now claimed by RG ?
Was this copy in the possession of one of Mitchell's daughters ?
If so, how did she come to have it ?

As a side note, when Ryan and Frank visited Greg Davis and came away with their own copy of the cover of Travis' manuscript and later shared the last page, I guess they didn't know that both had been previously shared by Garry C. in 2011/2012 .... here.... http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj31 ... 20Page.jpg
... http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... &start=280

Regards:Wayne

[Choto]

Hopefully your title doesn't return to bite you.