The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

[somehiker]

Choto:

We're getting quite a ways off the topic. You had a good flow of theory and information going on in the Peralta- Fish Map thread, that you seem would rather be seen on this one. This tends to make following either conversation very difficult, at least for me.
Would you prefer that further discussion of the stone map project be carried on in your thread instead ?
Or maybe we can merge the two and call it "The falsehoods, of Fish, Peralta,Ryan,Tumlinson's, and the SOJ".
I know it's kinda long, by heh, there's still a lot of names left out.

Regards:SH.

[babymick1]

Choto

Didn't Piper and a nutty lady blow the needle a new hole
back in the day. I would hardly think there to be anything
left there to consider that area. I thought piper found some treasure there. Maybe I'm wrong and thinking something
else.

Babymick1

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Choto,

I don't believe that the Peraltas were just "gambusinos". a "gambusino" is a small time miner/prospector looking to get rich without having the proper knowledge as a geologist. "Placeres" is a homonym which does mean pleasures, but in this case it refers to placer gold deposits. Many "gambusinos" were created by the gold rush of that era, and the Jesuits didn't like that. In my opinion the Peraltas knew way more that your average "gambusino".

Homar P. Olivarez

[somehiker]

Choto

Didn't Piper and a nutty lady blow the needle a new hole
back in the day. I would hardly think there to be anything
left there to consider that area. I thought piper found some treasure there. Maybe I'm wrong and thinking something
else.

Babymick1

Some say they blew the top right off of it.
And that's why it don't look like a needle no more.
There was something about them finding some alabaster crosses up there, but no golden goblets.

[Choto]

Choto:

We're getting quite a ways off the topic. You had a good flow of theory and information going on in the Peralta- Fish Map thread, that you seem would rather be seen on this one. This tends to make following either conversation very difficult, at least for me.
Would you prefer that further discussion of the stone map project be carried on in your thread instead ?
Or maybe we can merge the two and call it "The falsehoods, of Fish, Peralta,Ryan,Tumlinson's, and the SOJ".
I know it's kinda long, by heh, there's still a lot of names left out.

Regards:SH.

SH,
I am indifferent as to where the information is read and thought what I posted was relevant. If not, I apologize. What I was attempting to show is that the Jesuits may have been misrepresented in history and that what Ryan seems to be chasing, a Jesuit cache, has the potential to be quite real.

I have not been following Ryan or his research but when I found this thread, the title and some of the comments rubbed me the wrong way. Offering an opposing perspective on the SOJ, writing about their relationship with miners/rancher and sharing the actual Peralta genealogy seemed an intelligent response. Certainly was not meant to confuse.

Wayne, eventually you and the other thinkers here will have to consider the connections that are being made. If understanding history is the goal, and it is for me, these connections cant be ignored.

Anyway, the ideas and comments are Ryan's.
Which was my point.

[Choto]

Howdy Choto,

I don't believe that the Peraltas were just "gambusinos". a "gambusino" is a small time miner/prospector looking to get rich without having the proper knowledge as a geologist. "Placeres" is a homonym which does mean pleasures, but in this case it refers to placer gold deposits. Many "gambusinos" were created by the gold rush of that era, and the Jesuits didn't like that. In my opinion the Peraltas knew way more that your average "gambusino".

Homar P. Olivarez

I gave several definitions of gambusinos that range from small time operators, to men who were passionate about the hunt, to cruel men of power. Pick you pleasure.

The Peraltas, Teodoro and Jose Juan were well known in their time. Prominent citizens in Hermosillo and it continued with Cristobal.

Yes, I would agree that the Peraltas were "way more" skilled than most of the gambusinos of 1848/49. My source, Cristobal's cousin will impress you. Well educated, passionate about his family history and willing to share. I am impressed.

I am happy to find you here.

[Choto]

Choto

Didn't Piper and a nutty lady blow the needle a new hole
back in the day. I would hardly think there to be anything
left there to consider that area. I thought piper found some treasure there. Maybe I'm wrong and thinking something
else.

Babymick1

I know that at least one man fell from El Sombrero searching.
I thought that an earthquake took the top off in the late 1800's?

[babymick1]

Yeah, I don't know maybe a quake and a lotta TNT!
Took the top off, But I'm sure Somehiker's assumption is pretty right on track he does a good job with the history part of things.

But that's the point behide my thread, People can talk about things with out being deleted and band from the thread, such as the case with RG! I worded this thread after the words of RG's thread regarding Garvin, But you seam to be alright with that so what's the difference, just wondering

Babymick1

[Joe Ribaudo]

Choto

Didn't Piper and a nutty lady blow the needle a new hole
back in the day. I would hardly think there to be anything
left there to consider that area. I thought piper found some treasure there. Maybe I'm wrong and thinking something
else.

Babymick1

I know that at least one man fell from El Sombrero searching.
I thought that an earthquake took the top off in the late 1800's?

___________________________________________________________

I have serious doubts that Weaver's Needle has changed much in hundreds of years.

Here is a post that some of you may not have read before:

Quote
Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed May 26, 2010 10:02 pm
Wayne,

Here is part of the story, which I posted back in 2004:
__________________________________________


In March of 1966 I was wishing I was with my Uncle Chuck, and making the trip into the Superstitions as one of what would have been called the "seven guns" on Black Top Mountain by Glenn Magill. Uncle Sam just did not see it my way.

On March 28. 1966 Chuck wrote the following letter:

"Dear Joe,
Well I recieved your letter and was very glad to hear you are all right.
Yes we came back from Arizona, but are leaving to go back the 1st. of April.
The area has change to such an extent you wouldn't recognize it.
Upon ariving at Apache Junct. we continued our way to First Water Ranch
then straight east across West Boulder & East Boulder Canyon, until we came to Needle Canyon, than north for 3/8 mile.
We Camped under some real nice trees with running water 30 yds. away.
There is a cave to the left of our camp site and actual proof that Jacob Weiser & the dutchman were camped there, because we found square nails in the wall.
Well, the next morning we started looking for the elusive gold.
We went south towards Weavers Needle to a spot that would match where the cactus would be, but we couldn't find it. But on the way to this cactus we found a Spanish muleshoe. At this point I was pretty excited & not thinking to straight.

The next morning I & Dr. Phillips made our way up Black Top Mtn. to where the (petroglyphs) Spanish signs were. Well, they were there so I aligned myself to look S/East to the natural stone face marker & there she was.
Well, I told Tom that what we were looking for lay on that line to the stone face marker. But we had to have an idea of where the cactus with the stones would intersect this line.
In the meantime Manual (That would be Manual Salado) had made his way towards us, from way down canyon and just by fluke luck was on the same line that we were on.
Well, anyway he spoted this ridge & made for it, while we were coming down. So he says, hell! don't look anymore I found it. Tom checked it with the detectron and it went ape shit. But I still wanted to find that Cactus Marker, so I stood at the point where the reading was so high & calibrated my compass to find due east and it aligned up to a crevace on Bluff Springs Mtn.
Any how, we started moving rock away and ran smack into Caliche Cement, with no means of breaking through.
I dropped down about 4 feet to come up underneath it, and found a mule shoe carved into the rock. Manual had the torn shoe on his belt so I asked him for it, and layed it down on top of the carving, well it fit to a tee pointing directly to the opening we had made.

After this we left for home, and returned a week later with, what we thought would get in. But to no avail we were stoped. Well with nothing to do & time runing short, I decided to find that Cactus Marker. We went down to a fellow named Al Morrow who has been in there 12 years, digging in a hole, so I asked him. He was real nice & took me to where it used to be, it had been destroyed & in it's place was a rock with carved out circle & 4 lines. Well I layed my compass down and checked the alignment, it was perfect. The west line ran right through where we were working, so I knew that my figures were correct.
Now were going again but with dynamite & drills to pop it open.
Joe we checked the dirt away from the spot, along with the rocks & could get no reading, then we walked up to the spot & the needle went completely off scale on the low intensity scale.
Fisher Laboratories from Palo Alto checked everything we did & how we used the equipment, his finding's were that there was something very big underneath aprox. 6 feet down the size of a car body!!!!
So there you have it.
I checked my compass near the point in question to find if it was iron or possibly a meteorite. These would effect my compass.
Manual says he found it!
Well, I don't know. Maybe he did, but I do know he would never have known where to start or that it even existed. He says it isn't rough & he could find his way from any direction with no provlems. !Quen Sabe!

Well Joe it's time for me to go, so I will close wishing you the best."
_____________________________________________________

That's pretty close to what he wrote with only a few lines missing, which have no bearing on the content.

That was Chuck's first meeting with Al Morrow, and they became close friends. Al told Chuck "never go into my claim when it's raining, it's to dangerous". Makes you wonder why Al was in there. Quien Sabe?
_______________________________________________________

Even though I have Chucks drawing of how he figured out where he wanted to go from the Cactus Marker, I could never explain it to anyone. My uncle dropped out of grade school and went to work. Later on in his life, he got interested in math and self taught himself out of books. He was very good at it........all the way to advance trigonometry. Chuck was not your usual drop-out.

Hope you found the letter interesting.

Take care,

Joe
__________________________________

Thought some of the newbies might find Chuck's letter interesting.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

[somehiker]

SH,
I am indifferent as to where the information is read and thought what I posted was relevant. If not, I apologize. What I was attempting to show is that the Jesuits may have been misrepresented in history and that what Ryan seems to be chasing, a Jesuit cache, has the potential to be quite real.

I have not been following Ryan or his research but when I found this thread, the title and some of the comments rubbed me the wrong way. Offering an opposing perspective on the SOJ, writing about their relationship with miners/rancher and sharing the actual Peralta genealogy seemed an intelligent response. Certainly was not meant to confuse.

Wayne, eventually you and the other thinkers here will have to consider the connections that are being made. If understanding history is the goal, and it is for me, these connections cant be ignored.

Anyway, the ideas and comments are Ryan's.
Which was my point.

I see that Mick has returned to posting with no objections, so I'll withdraw my own.
Many of us believe in the possibility of a significant Jesuit cache somewhere out in the Sups, and the reasons for that have been discussed in here and on other sites for many years by myself and others. So have the connections between the Jesuits and the early Spanish ranchers and miners, and how this may have contributed to Jesuit wealth. The Peralta family name and historical records of that family in particular have always been in the forefront of the debate as well, driven to no small degree by the stone maps and other artifacts thought to be of Jesuit origin. Some may not agree with all of this, but the debate continues, and should Ryan's project produce unquestionable proof of such a cache, the no no no side will have to concede.

Regards:SH.