The falsehoods of Ryan, Tumlinson's and the SOJ

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne I think as I said they all led to a common site, as far as Waltz, how he found this common site we may never know. In the Killer mountains Curt Gentry talks about Glen Magill driving in 1965 on road less roads for 8 hours to arrive in Arizpe Sonora, Mexico, spending the night and the next day talking to a great granddaughter of Don M Peralta who family was involved according to her in the Arizona masacure. She was one of the last line of the original Peraltas family blood left (1965) in Arizpe. At the time was a very remote place. J Thomas said the Dutchman told her he had gone there to work in the silver mine, met the Peralta in a bar fight(we have all heard that a dozen times) I always read it was in a Wittenberg bar fight. This seems to make more sense with a Peralta Grand daughter acknowledging this first hand in 1965 to Magill. The other thing is the Jesuit church there has all kinds of parallels to the Supers. The Spanish Don who was commission by the King of Spain to remove all of the Jesuits from New Spain was born in Arizpe and is buried in the church courtyard in Arizpe. Could this church of had information on a Jesuit mine, that the local Peralta's could have been given and years later shared with Waltz according to Thomas? It makes a about as much sense as the Vulcan mine connection, maybe a little more? Wayne what do think is the most probable way Waltz could have learned of the mine? Jeff.

Jeff,

Many of us have met and talked to Baker Looney, one of Magill's team members. Baker calls me fairly often. He does not give much validity to "The Killer Mountains" story. The truth may be difficult to pry out of real history.

My wife with Baker:



Joe Ribaudo with Baker:



Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

[somehiker]

Joe:

Baker's name appears in a news article about an FBI investigation, shared on Garry's site.
Does he ever talk about it ?

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... 0Story.pdf

Were the men from Oklahoma City, mentioned in the story the same people that were part of Magill's party.
If so, I'm sure Baker has a few tales he could tell, about what it was like getting caught up in such a mess.

[jhowlett]

Thanks Wayne Great stuff. That picture was at the Don's camp? What year? It is funny how he was with that team in 1965 and still it is in his blood. If what Gentry wrote was correct I am sure they found an old mine just not where the Witch stone points too. Wayne do you think the old timers want it found? Finding it will only start another story in putting it all together. If Waltz was taken there by the Peralta's it would not have been by the stones or even a map, they knew the way from having been there , and they just took him there most likely. More than anyone else some of the things you have said about the place are correct. A funny thing a couple of years ago I ask my 85 year old neighbor if had ever heard of the Lost Dutchman Mine? He said why yes in 1955 and 1956 his parents took a Greyhound bus cross-country and spent two weeks each time with a guide in 55 and 56 a total of four weeks in the Supers looking for the LDM. His family had money and were world travelers. He can not remember much. I talked to his son last week they are trying to find the black and white Photos. It would be interesting to know who the guide was? If they find them I will post them. Getting late time to hit the hay. Jeff.

[jhowlett]

One last comment after reading all that Bob Corbin stuff. Where they copies? Most likely- all I know is that what is on them will be validated. It actually has been rather shocking along with a few other things. Jeff just go to bed. JH.

[somehiker]

Jeff:

The photos were Joe's, and they were taken at the Rendezvous about 4 or 5 years ago.
And yes, I guess it's true that for many, the mountains, the people, the history and mysteries all kinda get into your blood. Anyone who has spent much time out there comes away with plenty of memories and stories to tell at the very minimum.
Bob's written account of his short meeting with the agent from the FBI lab in Washington is very interesting, and I believe it, though others apparently don't. What the agent said about the stones they examined at the lab would seem to negate the possibility of their being copies.
The FBI's interest in the stones may have been brief, not resulting in any charges directly tied to them, but Ryan has said that the Tumlinson's were also paid a visit by the FBI, which would make sense if they were considered to be part of or evidence for allegations of fraud or violations of the federal antiquities act at that time.

Regards:Wayne

[Choto]

Wayne I think as I said they all led to a common site, as far as Waltz, how he found this common site we may never know. In the Killer mountains Curt Gentry talks about Glen Magill driving in 1965 on road less roads for 8 hours to arrive in Arizpe Sonora, Mexico, spending the night and the next day talking to a great granddaughter of Don M Peralta who family was involved according to her in the Arizona masacure. She was one of the last line of the original Peraltas family blood left (1965) in Arizpe. At the time was a very remote place. J Thomas said the Dutchman told her he had gone there to work in the silver mine, met the Peralta in a bar fight(we have all heard that a dozen times) I always read it was in a Wittenberg bar fight. This seems to make more sense with a Peralta Grand daughter acknowledging this first hand in 1965 to Magill. The other thing is the Jesuit church there has all kinds of parallels to the Supers. The Spanish Don who was commission by the King of Spain to remove all of the Jesuits from New Spain was born in Arizpe and is buried in the church courtyard in Arizpe. Could this church of had information on a Jesuit mine, that the local Peralta's could have been given and years later shared with Waltz according to Thomas? It makes a about as much sense as the Vulcan mine connection, maybe a little more? Wayne what do think is the most probable way Waltz could have learned of the mine? Jeff.

Very interesting post.
I am not suggesting that this describes the Superstitions however, if true, it tells us that mining activity north of the Gila began with the SOJ in 65' and after their expulsion in 67', continued with the Franciscans until 1792.

Source:
THE MONTEZUMA MINE from "The Weekly Arizona Miner, March 23, 1872.

"The old annals of the San Xavier Mission locate the aforsaid mine over 200 leagues north of the Gila river, and one hornado east of a large muddy river that empties into the Golf of California.

Those annuals state that from the year 1765 to 1792, they made yearly trips and bought away much gold and silver, and further, that the Indians on the Muddy River were a fine race and that they paid them in seeds of corn, melon and beans;and on their return from the mines they always gave the Indians their animals and returned on tule rafts down the river."

[Choto]

Again, if the report is accurate, the mission, after 1775, fell under the protection of El Presidio de Tucson. This is where things start to get interesting.

The Pedro Peralta that I am writing about had two sons, Teodoro and Jose Juan.

Jose Juan married Concepcion Cruz. (m.) 1845
Teodoro married Eulalia Cruz. - (m.) 1850

These two women were sisters and the daughters of Bernardo Cruz.

"Bernardo Cruz was born about 1788 at the Presidio of Pitic, Sonora, son of Mariano Cruz and María Guadalupe Arvisu. At age 30 he was working as an armorer and was five feet five inches tall, a Roman Catholic, with black hair and eyebrows, a flattened nose, and dark skin. He enlisted in the military at Tucson for 10 years on 16 September 1818, with José Telles and José Gallegos acting as witnesses.

He was the armorer for the rest of 1818. He was married prior to 1831 to Quiteria Villa. In 1831, Bernardo was a soldier at the Tucson Presidio. He was living there with his wife and children.

Bernardo Cruz and Quiteria Villa were the parents of three children:
i.Concepcion Cruz - was a child in 1831.
ii. Antonio Cruz - was a child in 1831.
iii. Eulalia Cruz - was a child in 1831. "

PIONEER FAMILIES OF THE PRESIDIO SAN AGUSTÍN DEL TUCSON

"In 1856 the Mexican army left the Tucson Presidio, taking with them the civil, church, and military archives. At an 1879 hearing, Francisco Solano León was asked what had happened to the records. He reported that they had been taken to Imuris, but didn’t know their whereabouts afterwards."

Journals of Private Land Claims


The Presidio of Tucson

The walls of the Presidio were reported to have run along Washington Street on the north, Church Street on the east, Pennington Street on the south, and Main Avenue on the west. Each side of the Presidio was about 750 feet long.

The wall was reported to have been between 18 inches and 4 feet thick and between 6 and 16 feet tall. We have no contemporary descriptions of the wall; instead, we rely on accounts preserved by people in the 1920s and 1930s and, as a result, we have many conflicting details.

Inside the fortress were homes, barracks, and stables built against the interior walls, a cemetery and church on the east side, a commander's house in the center, and several plazas. A pair of gates pierced the west and east walls, roughly where Alameda Street meets Main Avenue and one on Church Street at Alameda. The wall helped protect the community against attacks by Apaches, but by the 1850s this threat had subsided and the wall was demolished, with many of the bricks serving as building materials for Territorial period homes. The first map of Tucson, drawn in 1862, appears to show the general outline of the wall, especially the north and east sides. The last known standing portion of the wall was torn down in 1918.

https://www.tucsonaz.gov/info/search-el ... -de-tucson

[Choto]

If Ryan is working with the SOJ, and if that search takes them to the Superstitions, their effort would give some credibility to Ed Piper's story about Weaver's Needle.

"WEAVER'S NEEDLE TREASURE: According to Ed Piper (now deceased) an Apache chief named "White Horse", whom Ed had known intimately as a boy in Oklahoma, related that a wagon train of Spanish people came to the Superstitions Mountains from Globe, Arizona. They chose a natural landmark (Weaver's Needle) to deposit gold bars, jewels, statues and other artifacts. It was said they mounted the needle and deposited the huge cache inside a cave near the top, then sealed the entrance. When the cave was sealed"

Frank Fish/Lake Erie Schaefer

The sentence stops without a period and seems unfinished. Seems there should be more?

Anyway, my point is this....
There just may be a lost Jesuit cache or two waiting to be found in the Superstitions.
But, it would be a mistake to confuse it with the Peralta treasure trove.

The Peraltas were true gambusinos.

Some have suggested that it was actually the Gambusinos who, thru jealousy and false accusations, were responsible for the expulsion of the SOJ.

[jhowlett]

Joe thanks for the photos, I could' not help but to notice the ball caps you two guys were wearing. The Dons camp in the high dry desert is a long long way from the steamy humid jungles of Viet Nam, no wonder you both relish sitting in the Ramada at the Dons Camo as cooling night breeze starts to work it's wonders. Jeff.

[Choto]

What is a gambusino?

Los Gambusinos

"VOCABULARIO DE MEXICANISMOS DE 1899 defines the gambusino as 'minero práctico que se ocupa en buscar yacimientos minerales. Aplícase especialmente a los que van en busca de oro a los placeres' or, “A practical miner who is engaged in searching for mineral deposits. Applying especially to those who go in search of gold for the pleasures”.
VOCABULARIO DE MEXICANISMOS DE 1899


“A gambusino has to be an individual who plays to business, who ventures everything into a business."
Diccionario de Mejicanismos (1959)


Richard Schubel, in his thesis THE HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY OF A FRONTIER CAPITAL ARISPE, SONORA, (1969) wrote that the Gambusinos were “small mine operators or prospectors in the frontier of New Spain” and that "They were cruel oppressors on the quickest path to wealth and jealous antagonist who resented Jesuit intervention on behalf of pressed native miners". Schubel continues; “It was at this time that the Jesuits wrote many letters to the Crown condemning the abuse of the neophytes by the miners (gambusinos). The paternalistic attitude of the Jesuits towards their proselytism and their refusal to secularize the missions incited the wrath of the Spanish ranchers and miners who, through false accusations against the order, played an important role in the eventual expulsion of the Jesuits from Mexico”.

Schubel's thoughts on the expulsion are honestly new to me.