SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

[AshtonPage]

Hi Everyone,

The first question I ever posted was to ask about another web site that made the claim Sims had been pressured to leave out information from his book. Jim recommended I ask the webmaster of that other site – who turned out to be a great guy, but his answer to me was -> the claim about Sims had been made by people who were in a position to know such things. Which really didn't answer my question.

From my research, I came away believing that Sims is a straight shooter.
Sims talking: “I added, "there's not a great deal that Jim Bark and I are keeping to ourselves, except our conclusions about the meaning of a map we have. So I'll be glad to tell you anything I can. If, later on, you should ask me something I didn't care to give out, I'd tell you so." – Ely pg. 68

It’s interesting to ponder if Sims knew about the ravine. I believe that’s possible, but that’s just a hunch. What we do NOT know is what Reiney actually told Bark (I don’t think Sims ever interviewed Reiney) so if Sims wrote his book based on his own reasearch and what he heard firsthand from Julia, it is possible that she never mentioned a ravine. While that makes sense, I’m only guessing.

My position is; those with the ‘original notes’ and ‘all the info’ never found the mine either. I believe that was because they started from the wrong location.

Hi Travis,
You’re right; none of us are giving out anything we see as critical. If the time ever comes where I strike out in my area, I might just post some pictures and my conclusions – it might help spark someone on to see something that I missed.

Best,
Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hello,

You guys know I go by the clues alone, and throw most of the rest away. Sure i have my theories on the "stories", and i have posted most of those, mostly on another site before i found this one.

One thing i've noticed when reading on this subject, is most authors "glorify" the people involved. Waltz was a renegade murderer, or hell-raising drunk, depending on who you read. Holmes could have been a Navy Seal the way he is portrayed by some accounts. Julia Thomas was a religious freak who had "visions" of where the mine was. Tex Barkley was an honest Cowboy right out of the movies (I have a different opinion of Barkely). How come none of these people are "normal"? The writers are all just trying to make their story sound better for the books they write. Telling a "simple" story with boring, real-life people, probably wouldnt sell too many books. Although we probably wouldnt be looking for it, had they all not embellished a little.

It's like when you go to a Psychic, you're always a King or a Famous Person. You're never a Butcher or an A--hole.....
Have you ever met one of your "Heros", and they've turned out to be a D--- in person?

My point is, people can say whatever they want about Sims, Bark, or Holmes. I never knew them personally, so i can't vouch for their character. It is my opinion that no one who had all/most of the information, was or is ever going to let it all out publically at once. Sims said there wasnt a "great deal" of info that he left out, but to me that means he left out SOME THINGS.

However, I have said before that i do believe over time, most of the information has been leaked out a clue at a time. I still believe we have everything we need, you just have to use it correctly, which no one has been able to do yet. That we know of anyway.

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
Travis

[AshtonPage]

The reason there are no step by step directions in Ely's book is because waltz never gave any to Julia or Rhiney. He planned to take them to the mine and show them where it was, when they retrieved that last cache that was still there.
He just never recovered from his illness enough to make the trip before he died.

Hi Jim,

Took a while for me to get to this position, but you're right.

Sims page 115 -[Julia and Reiney] Knowing nothing of the area, remembering of Waltz's instructions only that "you go over the mountain from the cow-house and then down to a big spring," they were foredoomed to failure.

Best,
Ashton

[roward]

After reading this whole thread, I suddenly had a question come to mind. In all this talk about the gold vein and the tunnel that was started and the speculation about how the vein runs, etc., does anybody wonder how the Mexicans discovered the gold in the first place? Was it just lying on the ground in big nuggets, or was it a placer deposit in the ravine or canyon or wherever the mine is located? This would also apply to any of the other Mexican/Spanish mines in the Superstitions, but particulary to this one, given the description of it's being in such a remote and almost inaccessible area?

[AshtonPage]

Hi Roward,

Reading the history of the American west, there were literally gold nuggets just lying on the ground when the first settlers came to the area. Sounds incredible, but it’s true.

Another method is because gold is heavy and therefore settles in the creek beds, a gold pan can be used to trace the line of nuggets from the creek back to the source (vein outcropping, where the vein breaks through the surface of the earth). One thing that we often forget is that once the surface vein has been mined (even just a few feet) there is no more gold from that vein being washed into the creeks. Meaning that it would be neigh unto impossible to use a gold pan nowadays to find the LDM. The old gold has washed too far downstream by now and it is not being replenished.

Hope this helps,

Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

After reading this whole thread, I suddenly had a question come to mind. In all this talk about the gold vein and the tunnel that was started and the speculation about how the vein runs, etc., does anybody wonder how the Mexicans discovered the gold in the first place? Was it just lying on the ground in big nuggets, or was it a placer deposit in the ravine or canyon or wherever the mine is located? This would also apply to any of the other Mexican/Spanish mines in the Superstitions, but particulary to this one, given the description of it's being in such a remote and almost inaccessible area?

Roward,

In Conasters book The Sterling Legend, she has a version of the Peralta Mining Story that could explain what you're asking. In her version, They started out "placering" on the river, then followed it back to the source.

I would read that part, then form you own opinion about it.

Thanks,
Travis

[AshtonPage]

While this is nothing earth shaking, I believe it might answer the curious question (and one that has been bugging me for some time now) which is: if Waltz owned an incredibly rich gold mine then why was he a pauper?

Sims gives us a lot of insight into the character of Jacob Waltz. Granted the bulk of it comes via Julia, but she actually knew Jacob for who he was.
Sims page 89: “(Waltz) could not rest. This was the conviction that he was morally responsible for the death of his lifelong friend and partner (Jacob Weiser)… Waltz lived erratically with what he considered guilt.”

Pg 97 Waltz speaking: “I have the right to work that mine, but I gave up that idea after my partner got killed. He was killed by the Apaches twenty years ago and I never wanted to work in the mine again.”

This also tells me that (according to Sims) Waltz would NOT have made frequent trips back to the mine.

Just food for thought,
Ashton

[AshtonPage]

In what appears to be a contradiction: Sims pg 97 Waltz speaking: “I wouldn’t even try to tell you where the mine is if it wasn’t for the cache. But you can’t find one without the other.”
OK – so the cache is at (or near) the mine.

But on page 103 “We’d take each day’s clean up with us when we left the mine and store that gold in a cache near the camp.” Reading earlier on the page you see that the camp is “just a few miles from the mine.”
OK – so the cache is near the camp (a few miles away from the mine).

Well, which is it? Are the caches at the camp or at the mine?

Back to pg 97: “The gold came out of a mine, of course. It was taken out by the two of us and stored nearby.”

Could it be possible that there is a large cache near the mine and smaller caches near the camp? Would Waltz have retrieved the smaller caches from the camp (Sims pg 107) because the camp is easier to get to but he left the large cache that was near the mine (which is in rough country and presumably more difficult to get to)?

You don’t put all your eggs in one basket and Waltz tells us that there was more than one cache (so that much we know). It makes sense that if you’re going to have multiple caches that you don’t put them all right next to each other – because you never know who might be watching or who might come passing by and notice that you’re miners then decide to come back to your camp and do a little digging on their own when you’re not there.

I dunno. I’m starting to think that there were two small caches at the camp but the large cache is at the mine. What do y’all think?

Ashton

[AshtonPage]

Hey All,

Sims writes something interesting on pg 117: “Like the rest of us, he (Herman Petrasch) was baffled only by Reiney’s imperfect memory of those directions which Waltz had vouchsafed AS HE LAY DYING …”

Now that’s curious. Reiney’s imperfect memory of the directions Waltz gave as he lay dying? According to Herman Petrasch, Reiney was there. Am I reading this correctly? And if I am, then it follows:
IF Reiney was there
AND Holmes was also there
THEN there should have been no dispute as to who Waltz gave the gold to.
MEANING – Maybe Holmes wasn’t in the room after all.

Have I completely lost it?

Comments??

Ashton

[roc2rol]

I haven’t read Ely book, yet
and certainly don’t have logical capacity
to figure out the conflict between the Holmes/Petrasch stories.
That’s a maelstrom of confusion.

as far as if you lost it ?
well…. one thing we know for sure
the gold is lost !
figures…
Ed