SIMS ELY'S BOOK - The Lost Dutchman Mine

[djui5]

I do have to correct you on one point. Ely never interviewed Reiney. He had left Phoenix about a year before Ely arrived. All of Ely's references pertaining to Reiney came from Jim Bark, who did interview Reiney before he left town..... Lighthouse

I think you are correct but I sent an e-mail to Wayne (zentull) to ask him as he would know for sure. It seems to ring a bell that what you say is how it happened. For some reason my memory is fading at a young age Must be all the stress at work.

[Jim Hatt]

You guys have me doubting my own interpretation of Sim’s words now.

“ on the basis of Jim Bark’s and MY subsequent rigorous cross-examination of BOTH Helena and Rhiney”
from: pg 96 of Ely’s book (previous page of this topic)

I thought that was a freebie…. What am I missing?

Rhiney may have moved to Globe by the time Ely came on the scene, but that does not mean that Ely could not have interviewed him. Ely could have gone to Globe, or met with him at some designated time and place in Phoenix.

[djui5]

Well hell. It would seem from that statement Jim that he did speak with Rhiney personally. This is what Wayne said:
--
Rhiney left Phoenix around 1895 and Ely says in both his book and letters that he never spoke to him but spoke to Herman quite frequently and compared Herman's story to what Jim Bark gave him
--

So now I am wondering if somewhere else in the book Ely stated that he didn't talk to Rhiney? It's been a while since I've read it.

[Jim Hatt]

djui,

It sure would be a big letdown for me, if we uncovered a situation where Ely's own words contradicted something that was in his book.

If true, I would have to believe what he said in a letter over what is printed in his book. There would be no editors, or other variables involved with the letter.

So now I am wondering if somewhere else in the book Ely stated that he didn't talk to Rhiney? It's been a while since I've read it.

I don't think it IS in there anywhere djui. I refer to that book often. I think I would have picked up on it by now, if it contradicted itself anywhere.


Mike - Where did you find the information that Ely never interviewed Rhiney personally?


Can anybody post a copy of the letter being referred to? I don't remember ever seeing it, or hearing about it.

Jim

[steveevh5150]

Jim,

Just got done reading the book. Fantastic! And from what I just read, while it's still fresh, I didn't see anything in there that said Sims did not cross examine Rhiney

[steveevh5150]

I stand corrected, starting on page 113, which is the beginning of chapter 9. "Reiney was unavailable for questioning-he had left Phoenix at least a year before I got there."

Pg 114 "My primary source was Helena Thomas herself."

Helena and Reiney go on the search of the mine after Jacob dies. Unable to find it, they ended up sending for Reiney's father and brother.

Pg 115: "This the two Petrasches did, but after the four of them searched for about a year, Reiney quit in a fit of disgust." then, a little further down the page, "But before he left the Phoenix area for good, Reiney Petrasch told all that he knew about Waltz and the gold mine to Jim Bark, at the latter's ranch. reiney did this for two reasons, one, he was aware that Jim had known and respected Jacob Waltz and, two, he reached an understanding with Jim that the latter would do the right thing by Reiney if he found the mine. Jim was naturally interested, and after he had heard Reiney's report of Waltz's divulgence he jotted down memoranda of some forty points in the story and used these as a basis for a rigid cross-examination of young Petrasch. When he was done, Jim was satisfied that he had the whole story; yet he also questioned Helena Thomas many times. Reiney's story and the results of both Jim's and my interview's with Helena all jibed-an important substantiation of the evidence."

On page 117 Sims further says that that Herman questioned Reiney and that the recollection of the story told to Herman by Reiney, was then handed to Sims, buy Herman.

So, out of these pages, in my opinon, nothing is stated even here that Sims Ely EVER talked or interviewed Reiney in person. That everything about Reiney was handed from Jim Bark or Herman Petrasch.

[Jim Hatt]

It does indeed appear that there is a contradiction in Ely's own words as written on pages 113-117 and what he wrote on page 96.

ie: “ on the basis of Jim Bark’s and MY subsequent rigorous cross-examination of both Helena and Reiney”
from: pg 96 of Ely’s book"

After giving it careful consideration. I don't think it is a glaring contradiction, and could be nothing more than the result of an improperly worded sentence on page 96. Only a direct comparison of this sentence with Ely's hand written manuscript, could determine if the error was Ely's, or the result of "editing" by someone on the staff at William Morrow and Company.

In my opinion, it does not effect the credibility of Ely's account of the story either way.

Good catch Steve!

Jim

[djui5]

In my opinion, it does not effect the credibility of Ely's account of the story either way.

Good catch Steve!

Jim

Agreed.

[AshtonPage]

Question regarding the alleged changes that Sims made, supposedly at the request of the Bark family:

quoting from a book review on:
http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/entries/ely.html

>> Ely wrote it while in the hospital, basing it in part on his old friend Jim Bark's notes.

>> Unfortunately, when he wrote it he changed some things at the request of the Bark family, presumably to protect their interest in finding the mine themselves.

>> To make matters worse, Bark himself had been rather cagey in his notes on his interviews with Julia Thomas, the Petraschs, and Holmes etc.

Are these remarks credible? If Sims did change parts of his book then those changes would be the (obviously) the critical components as to the physical description of, and the landmarks surrounding the LDM.

I'm not trying to diss Mr. Ely, I would just like to have some idea of how much truth I am dealing with.

As Always - thanks!

Ashton

[Jim Hatt]

Ashton,

As a rule, anything you read on Doug Stewart's website, comes from a very good source. In this case, I would guess his information is as valid as anyone else's, if not better. Without knowing his source, it's really hard for me to comment on.

You could email him, and inquire bout his source for that information. He may even have a tidbit or or to he could add to it?

Best,

Jim