Jim Hatt wrote:
I'm glad that you agree Greg. I hate to refer to them as "Freeloaders", because a lot of them are probably just shy, or uncomfortable communicating via this format.
If anyone is shy or uncomfortable communicating on a forum where you can be anonymous and are not face to face with anyone, how on earth are they able to ever set foot outside their doors?
One of the earliest publications concerning the Dick Holmes story is in "Arizona Cowboys" by Coolidge. While the book was published in 1938 it involves itself with the ranching in the area circa 1903 and relates one of the earlier Holmes tales. Between various accounts given to reporters From Dick Holmes and Brownie between 1900-1940 the story evolves and changes from who was there to the location of Waltz as he lay dying. A number of Dutch Hunters like Slim Kite have added even more variables to the tale.
Did Waltz die in Julias home or one of the outbuildings out back? It appears from research presented this past year that Julias store location at the time of Waltzs death had no backroom and has been mis located in the past.
Who was really there? Dick Holmes states it was only him in one account, but Ida Holmes said later She was there as well. Sometimes Rhinehart Petrasch is there and sometimes he is missing. Gideon Roberts participation was revealed later on, but of course with his passing shortly after Waltzs there is no tale known to emanate from him.
Thomas Glover did some great research and Clay Worst has some good insights about how the manuscript developed. Clay walked us through a bit last fall about how it came about and why Brownie may have had issues with it. I think it can be agreed that Clay was one of Brownies closer friends in his last years and is one of the better sources for information.
There is no corroboration with the Holmes story by any other witness then Dick Holmes. Any other testimony is very iffy at best.It is a bit of a strange story, but the chronological history of the tale seems to imply that it developed more as time and information was available. Brownie was simply relating a story told to him by his Father in whom he believed implicitly. Much can be said the same for Herman Petrasch. Both of whom were well thought of by the many Dutch Hunters who interacted with them.
The controversy of the Thomas/Petrasch versus Holmes camps is a bit silly at this point in time, though it continues for some. There are no blood relations from any of those parties with any real grudge in existence and not one of them were able to locate either the caches at Waltzs camp or the mine itself. Even those close to each party have variations of the same clues.
If anyone is shy or uncomfortable communicating on a forum where you can be anonymous and are not face to fact with anyone, how on earth are they able to ever set foot outside their doors?
Now I'm one of those people that enjoy reading stories, but sometimes it may be something I don't know enough about to post. An example I enjoy reading about The Mayans & 2012, but don't know enough about it to hold a lengthy conversation about it. Does this mean that I am shy?
If anyone is shy or uncomfortable communicating on a forum where you can be anonymous and are not face to fact with anyone, how on earth are they able to ever set foot outside their doors?
Now I'm one of those people that enjoy reading stories, but sometimes it may be something I don't know enough about to post. An example I enjoy reading about The Mayans & 2012, but don't know enough about it to hold a lengthy conversation about it. Does this mean that I am shy?
No, it means you're smart.
I think that the point in this is that people will come to these forums and take the information provided to use for their benefit, and never give anything back. EVEN A SHORT THANK YOU OR COMMENT WOULD BE NICE. Look at all the threads where information and Photos have been provided (in all the forums). Then look at the views versus the actual replies. Certainly you can't force someone to contribute, but it would be nice if their were more participants. I thought that's what forums were all about. What say you?
(I didn't mean to shout up there but all of a sudden my keyboard went wonky and started typing everything in caps? Go figure.
You both bring up valid points. Greg's position happens to be more in line with mine, but that doesn't make us any more correct than Iggy is.
One of the things I am trying to accomplish in the LDM Forum, is to try to give a good enough historical introduction to each topic, right in the opening post, so that even a novice to the subject, has enough background information on the subject, to understand what the rest of us are talking about, where our knowledge comes from (Source Material) and do enough of their own research (Homework) to supplement what is already posted and become a valuable asset to the conversation.
Zen's post above clearly identifies him as someone who has already done a considerable amount of his own homework, and probably a fair share of legwork in the mountains as well. He presents some new information that I have never heard before and provides his sources for that information that makes it easy for me to follow up on, and research it in greater detail. Something that even a novice could do, and expand on the information that he introduced.
Thanks for the info about Coolidge's book "Arizona Cowboys". Although I have heard of it before, I have ignored it, believing it to be a fictional novel more than a potential for source material.
I made a similar mistake in ignoring a novel by G. A. Henty titled The Golden Canon (Canyon in Spanish) published in 1899. Henty was an author of "Boys" books on the order the Hardy Boys adventure books, that were popular when I was a kid. The difference is that Henty always researched thoroughly, and his stories were based on some actual historical information. Anyone familiar with the Superstitions (Especially the northern end near the Salt River) can read The Golden Canon and see that he had some very good source material to base his story on.
I have discussed the Holmes manuscript with Clay over many campfires, and often into the early hours of the morning. As he knows well, I am very suspicious of it, and I have brought up contradictions in what he believes to be the truth of it's source, and things that are written in the manuscript itself. Clay can never come up with a reasonable (in my opinion) explanation for how a newspaper man "Kennison" he calls him, could have written the manuscript, and it would contain so many grammatical and spelling errors. (Not to say that my own style is that much better)
The Holmes Manuscript (again in my opinion) was not written by someone that made his living as a writer. My common sense tells me that it was written by Brownie Holmes himself. Brownie told Clay otherwise, and Clay's loyalty to Brownie, will not let him accept the possibility, that Brownie ever told him anything but the absolute truth.
I wasn't there. I will never know for sure, but I have a responsibility to myself to form my own opinions, without prejudice of friendship, based on the facts that are staring me in the face.
Fortunately for me, (To my knowledge) Clay has never held that against me.
Clay and I have worked together on and off since the early 90's. One of the things we agreed on when we first teamed up, was that he was squarely in the Holmes Camp and I was just as squarely in the Petrasch Camp.
We both had a lot to offer the other concerning our knowledge of certain parts of the mountains, and areas where our knowledge overlapped. After discussing the possible conflicts that could arise between us, because of the opposite camps we represented. We decided that in any partnership, where both partners believed exactly the same, one of them was obviously redundant, and neither could be of any help to the other for coming up with new ideas.
The strength of our union was based on the differences between us. There were times when it was difficult to say the least. But our common goal always pulled us through them.
Last month I had one of the worst experiences I have ever had in the mountains. see:
Crippled up with a bad hip, and only able to get around with the help of a walking cane, It was Clay Worst that was out there with me at 3:00 AM helping me get my truck out of the mountains. We both got home, and pulled into our driveways just as the sun was coming up that morning.
Well, now I am drifting off the topic. But in a way, It's all part of the Big Picture.
I have been just a fortunate guy who was introduced to the mountains at a very young age and continued to absorb what was around me for close to 40 years now. As much as I have seen things change, I can't even imagine how many times over it has changed for someone like Clay or Tom, who made their first trips with their Dads as well.
I always was just interested in the history and stories and what made people do some of the ridiculous things they did back there in the mountains. It wasn't a popular thing to question or pry back then, so I just hiked with my friends and eventually as they married off, hiked on my own.
About 10 years ago things changed and Helen Corbin and Tom Glover deserve a lot of credit for bringing new interest in and old friends together more. There were new folks and some nostalgia, but the research possibilities have just gone through the roof. I would encourage anyone to ask questions and poke around folks experiences. One day they won't be there and that will be a sad day for us all.
Coolidges book is mainly about the cattlemen and sheep men at that time and some of the stuff going on. A nice personal narrative and style to document that time. The Holmes tale barely resembles most versions, but the fact it is there says something and while it is way off on anything resembling accuracy, it shows that the Holmes story had made its way into the cowboys campfire tales by 1903. Good read and some nice photographs of that era.
I came here specifically to search for the gold, same as Clay did 40 some years before me. In a way, we both found it in the people we have met, and the experiences we have shared with them. I wouldn't trade them for the Gold today, and I don't think Clay would either!
No I didn't say that Don. As far as I know, the only place you can get it is at the Superstition Mountain Museum unless you can get a copy of Helen Corbin's book "Curse of the Dutchman" or Dr. Glover's Book "The Holmes Manuscript".
