THE BARK NOTES on - The Lost Dutchman Mine

[Jim Hatt]

Hi Bob,

You have been "digging" haven't you!

There are probably a lot of "background" stories in the "Bark Notes" that have not been altered at all. No reason to alter anything that does not apply to a specific area of the mountains. Just because something didn't sound right to Jim Bark, does not mean it did not happen. What you found, shows that it could have happened the way Julia told Bark it did.

We are starting to get a lot more people post in the forum now than we had in the beginning. We will probably start seeing a lot more different opinions about certain topics in the future, than we have in the past. It should give you a lot more opportunity to jump in with some of your own ideas and opinions.

Jim

[AshtonPage]

No doubt Barks Notes, as we have them today, are a can of worms. One thing I noticed in Barks notes is that the author (whoever that may be) inserts his own conclusions into the story as it progresses:

Under Jacob Walsh chapter we read: “no cowboy could ever find it, which I take it to mean that one cannot ride a burro to it, or within sight of it; and for some reason, there is an interruption in the trail going to it, as (read ‘because’) a cowboy will go anywhere that a trail leads.” Parenthesis mine.

Later on we start reading that the trail is interrupted with a “cave or a hole”. Now, that’s a curious expression and I find it extremely odd that both Deering and Thorne would use exactly the same phrase (and a rather strange phrase at that) to describe something which, according to their own accounts could not possibly be the same mine.

Just food for thought,

Ashton

[cubfan64]

No doubt Barks Notes, as we have them today, are a can of worms. One thing I noticed in Barks notes is that the author (whoever that may be) inserts his own conclusions into the story as it progresses:

Under Jacob Walsh chapter we read: “no cowboy could ever find it, which I take it to mean that one cannot ride a burro to it, or within sight of it; and for some reason, there is an interruption in the trail going to it, as (read ‘because’) a cowboy will go anywhere that a trail leads.” Parenthesis mine.

Later on we start reading that the trail is interrupted with a “cave or a hole”. Now, that’s a curious expression and I find it extremely odd that both Deering and Thorne would use exactly the same phrase (and a rather strange phrase at that) to describe something which, according to their own accounts could not possibly be the same mine.

Just food for thought,

Ashton

Hi Ashton - you've had some good posts lately and I've wanted to respond, but life seems to keep getting in the way . I'll respond eventually thought because I think you made some interesting points.

In regards to this post, it sounds as though you are reading the "Thomas Probert" version of the Bark Notes (I think that's the one available at the library out there). While the content is virtually the same, the other versions have none of the "side comments" that Mr. Probert includes. I wouldn't put too much stock in the side comments by Probert because in the end, they are all just his opinion and interpreation - no different than what you or I think about when we read things.

[AshtonPage]

Hi Cubfan,

I got my Bark's Notes from a gentleman who runs another LDM website when I asked him a question. It’s probably not proper etiquette to name drop, so I’ll let it go at that. Anyway – I don’t know which version I have but there are not any side comments.

Later,

Ashton

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hey Ashton,

The version i read at the Phoenix Library did have the "side notes", but they didnt seem like "opinions" to me. In the version i read through, the sidenotes were pointing out discrepancies such as dates, like Bark seeing Julia in the summer of 1893, and things like the "Mirietta Bandit" story, which the sidenote says Mirietta was a bandit in California, not Arizona. There are sidenotes to almost every story in the version i read. (They still might be opinions, i just didnt think they "read" that way)

I would not discount them myself at all, as most of the sidenotes in my opinion, could have been "simple" mistakes, or "flavor" added to a "real" story. It's unfortunate that someone thought they needed to "add" to the stories, but if you sift through the "bull" in it, i do believe there is some useful information.

To be honest, i read the entire friggin book and only found 3 things that i hadnt noted from anywhere else. They did add some more "confirmation" to my search area, so maybe it was good to read them.

good luck,
Travis

[Jim Hatt]

Hello Travis and welcome to the DUSA forums!!!

To be honest, i read the entire friggin book and only found 3 things that i hadnt noted from anywhere else.

I assume you are talking about Ely's book here. If so... I have have to agree with you. I can't think of a single author that has written a book or manuscript about the LDM since Ely's book came out, that has not repeated one part of it or another. (Usually without giving Ely credit as the source).

It's unfortunate that someone thought they needed to "add" to the stories, but if you sift through the "bull" in it, i do believe there is some useful information.

You bring up a good point here and I have to agree with it also...

What most "Armchair Dutch-Hunters" do not understand. Is that you cannot sift out the "bull" from the "useful information" without putting your boots on the ground. I know you have done that, so I apply a little more weight to your opinions, than I would to someone who used Google Earth to form them.

Best,

Jim

[Dirty Dutchman]

Thanks for the welcome Jim!

I wrote "book" but meant "notes". I was actually referring to the Bark notes. I agree a lot of the "modern" writings have seemed to "regurgitate" Sims' writings.

I agree, you definately have to get into them "hills" to see stuff first hand. The computer does them NO justice. My last trip taught me a big lesson. KNOW THE CLUES so they are ingrained in your mind!

I was exploring "my" location and forgot about a key clue. It started to look like it was NOT the correct area. That is until i got home and realized that what i had seen is what it is SUPPOSED to look like. Geeezz, that'll p*ss ya off!

Yeah, GoogleEarth has been helpful to me, but most things that look "easy" on there, are NOT! Even my horse looked over his shoulder a few times as if to ask, "Are you Nucking Futs" ?

thanks,
Travis

[AshtonPage]

Hi Travis and welcome to the discussions.

To me, most of the unique information in Barks Notes is suspect. For example, I have to wonder WHY would Waltz put up markers to the mine that he told Julia he previously found without any trouble. A mine which, by all accounts, he intended on keeping a secret – that is to say, I doubt Waltz had the intention of telling anyone else how to find the mine during the time he supposedly put up the markers referred to in Barks Notes below:

Reiney talking to Jim Bark: “that there were mountain peaks just west and above the mine, and that he placed this frying pan with four small rocks in it on the center peak, and that if we would go down the peak due east, we would find the mine.” Barks Notes - Jacob Walsh chapter.

Sounds like misdirection to me – and the issue is compounded when jokers (for lack of a more polite term) go around setting up markers referred to by Bark, et.al.

BTW - anyone want to buy a slightly used frying pan? I’m joking, of course.

Best to you all,

Ashton

[Jim Hatt]

Yeah, GoogleEarth has been helpful to me, but most things that look "easy" on there, are NOT! Even my horse looked over his shoulder a few times as if to ask, "Are you Nucking Futs" ?

Travis

My horse has given me the same look many times over the years.
15 years ago, he was young and energetic and I could manage to get him to go just about anywhere, he could find a place to put all four of his hooves. The last few years, he has started looking up the side of a ridge or mountain I want him to go up, and gets into the attitude, (That little dancing in one spot, stomping his feet, shaking his head and snorting) that I know means... that I can go up there if I want to, but he would much rather remain at the bottom, munch on a Palo Verde tree, and wait for me to return.

Best,

Jim

[Dirty Dutchman]

Hey Ashton,

I agree. There would be no reason, in my mind, that Waltz would have to "mark" the trail. Maybe the Mexicans had marked it, and the story was "twisted" by the writers until it was Waltz that had marked the trail?

The only reason the "frying pan" thing makes any sense to me is, i have read a certain "description" of the "ravine" that would make sense for Waltz to "mark" it. I know that sounds vauge, but it is something that i think is important in identifying the correct site and i do not wish to "elaborate" at this point. Whether it has "bullet" holes in it or not, i guess we will find out!

I agree also that the possibility is STRONG that Ely and Bark both gave out "misdirection". They were both "hunters" so it would make sense. The only thing that i think could argue against that is that they didnt let their "writings" out until they were "done" searching so maybe MOST of what were reading is true. (as true as it can be anyway)

I'm laughing at the "frying pan for sale" thing. We actally found an aluminum canteen (no cover left on it) that had 3 bullet holes in it! That gave us quite a laugh that day!

thanks,
Travis