"POSSIBLE" LDM CLUES from various sources

[Jim Hatt]

This Topic is reserved for a compiled list of clues that are from sources. Books/Sources will be chronologically arranged according to their date of publication, and clues by chapter and page.

CLUES FROM - SUPERSTITION'S GOLD By: Oren Arnold 1934 & 1946


CLUES FROM - TRAIL OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN By: BARRY STORM 1939

(Anybody that can get their hands on a copy of Storms first book - Trail of the Dutchman, will find it contains a different version of how Waltz and Weiser found the mine, than can be found anywhere else in print. It also contains the very first mention of Waltz's (Nephew). I include it here, not as a clue to the location of the LDM, but as a possible source of where story about Waltz having a Nephew originated. (re: Storm's quotes from Julia and Rhiney - It is debatable whether Storm ever had a direct conversation with either of them.

Chapter 6 Page 63 (TRAIL OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN 1939)

Old Walz had one other friend of whom he was very fond, probably because he was a good listener. This friend, a boy, Reinhart Petrasch, called the Dutchman familiarly "Uncle Jake." For hours at a time he would sit and listen to the tales that Walz spun about his hidden mine in the Superstitions. Some say, the Dutchman always said, he would show it to his "Nephew" and to Julia.





CLUES FROM - THUNDER GODS GOLD By: BARRY STORM 1945

Part II Chapter 5 Page 59 (TREASURE TRAIL EDITION 1946)

On another occasion, Charles M. Clark of Mormon Flat, at whose cabin The Dutchman sometimes stopped, tried to follow him and after a strenuous tour of the mountains found himself back hiding behind a mesquite tree at the Tortilla Flat spring while Walz sat down upon a rock and took it easy. After a time, and without even turning around, he calmly called to Clark to come out of hiding. Walz said that he had known Clark was following him all the time--and that and that he would kill him if he ever tried it again.

Thunder God's Gold was published in 1945. One can only wonder about the credibility of a very similar story with Dick Holmes name inserted for that of Charles Clark in the Holmes Manuscript which appeared on the scene in 1948 - Three years after the story had already appeared in THUNDER GODS GOLD.

Part II Chapter 5 Page 63 (TREASURE TRAIL EDITION 1946)

You'll never find it, but if you pass three red hills you have gone too far.

He could not be seen from the Military trail in the canyon below, but that he could easily watch the trail from his mine.

he told about having to climb a short ways from a steep raving in order to see Weaver's Needle to the southward above his mine.

The setting sun would shine through a break in the mountains and glitter upon the ore.

I am currently watching for these clues in any publications that predate Thunder God's Gold which could have possibly been Storm's source for them.





CLUES FROM - TRUE STORY OF JACOB WALZER By: Charles Frederick Higham 1946





CLUES FROM - SPANISH GOLD AND THE LOST DUTCHMAN By: Doc Rosecrans 1949





CLUES FROM - GHOST GOLD By: Oren Arnold 1954





CLUES FROM - THE MYSTIC MOUNTAINS By: William Irven Lively 1955




CLUES FROM - THE KILLER MOUNTAINS By: Curt Gentry 1968

For those who are not familiar with the book, THE KILLER MOUNTAINS. It is a true story about a Private Detective from Oklahoma City, OK. named Glenn Magill, who began to research the story of the Lost Dutchman Mine for a client and personal friend of his. Glenn began his research with only a casual personal interest in the subject, but it later turned into a passion for him that lasted until his dying day. He left no stone unturned in his quest to verify the source and credibility, of every clue in every book he could get his hands on, that had anything to do with the LDM. In the course of his research about the LDM, he became acquainted with the story of the Stone Maps, and researched Jesuit history all the way back to Father Kino in the 1600's. I met with Glenn briefly in OK City, less than a year before he died, while I was traveling between Nuclear Power Plant Contracts. It was obvious to me that he believed that the Stone Maps were authentic maps to hidden Jesuit Treasure, and to mines that they had worked in the Superstition Mountains. One of the last things he said to me was. "The Stone Maps are the key to everything Jim, you solve them, and you will find the Lost Dutchman Mine in the process." It has been a long time since I have read Killer Mountains, and I will have to read it again before I can list any clues from it. Maybe someone that has read it recently, or is in the process of reading it now, will get this section of this Topic started before I get a chance to.




CLUES FROM - THE STERLING LEGEND By: Estee (Shirley) Conatser 1972

Chapter 6 Page 30

The Mine, which Waltzer DESCRIBED as being a cone shaped pit, is supposedly situated in a ravine high on the side of a mountain with the mouth of the mine facing west.It is naturally hidden by the contours of the mountain making it impossible to see from below. Directly across the ravine and facing the east is a rock formation shaped like a face that looks down on the mine. It is a short climb up to the top of the mountain from which the tip of a tall sharp peak can be seen to the south.Also across the ravine from the mine there is a cave.


Chapter 6 Page 31

You must go to the head of a deep, narrow, north-south trending canyon. The right canyon can be determined by the ruins of a stone house at it's head... He further identifies it by stating that the old Military Trail runs along the bottom of the canyon and can be seen from the mine... From this point you proceed down canyon until you find a cave near the base of a high bluff. The cave faces north and at the entrance are the remains of a stone house, minus the roof, in which Walzer and his partner lived while working the mine. With this cave located, you continue down the canyon for a distance described as several miles, carefully observing the east side of the canyon. At an undetermined distance, you will see a rock formation in the shape if a face high on a ridge. This is the key. Directly across from this stone face is the entrance to the mine.




CLUES FROM - THE TREASURE OF THE SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS By: Gary Jennings 1973




CLUES FROM - TALES OF THE SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS By: Robert Blair 1975




CLUES FROM - RIDDLE OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE By: John Wilburn 1975




CLUES FROM - FOOLS' GOLD By: Robert Sikorsky 1983 & 1991




CLUES FROM - LOST DUTCHMAN MINE DISCOVERIES By: Jay Fraser 1988



CLUES FROM - TRUE STORY OF SUPERSTITION MOUNTAINS By: Bob Ward 1990




CLUES FROM - CURSE OF THE DUTCHMAN'S GOLD By: Helen Corbin 1990




CLUES FROM - LORE OF THE SUPERSTITIONS By: Jack San Felice 2003




CLUES FROM - TREASURE TRAILS OF THE SUPERSTITIONS By: Jack San Felice 2006




CLUES FROM - THE LDM ENIGMA By: Michael Chabak 2007

[tjoslin53]

Can anyone tell me the location of the millitary trail that goes through the Superstitions if there is one. Everone knows the clue (which I don't believe) "you cannot see my mine from the millitary trail but you can see the millitary trail from the mine" I have been trying to find a map showing its location. I was told that there is one that goes from one fort to another. Note: This trail would be from Fort McDowell south toward Gold Canyon.

[Jim Hatt]

Trent,

There may be some validity in that clue. Sims Ely was very interested in researching it, so it may be something that he got from Julia or Rhiney. Sims was interested enough to locate, and write a letter to the retired commander of Ft. McDowell, asking him where the Military Trail ran through the Superstitions.

The reply said something like:

There was no Military Trail through the mountains. The only time the Soldiers entered the mountains was when they were in hot pursuit of Apaches that they had in sight, because there were so many places where they could be ambushed if they didn't know where they were. He added that when the Soldiers traveled from Ft. McDowell to Picket Post (the other Fort in the area) they always went around the Superstitions via the Apache trail.

If Waltz really said that... Then his mine was either within view of the Apache trail, or... He just happened to spot some Soldiers in the mountains when they were chasing Apaches, and started calling the trail he saw them on the Military Trail.

Even if the clue is valid. It is pretty much useless, because there are so many possibilities for where Waltz could have seen the Soldiers, along the Apache Trail or in the mountains.

Jim

[roward]

Jim
I guess this is the right place to repost what I wrote to you yesterday. In an article by Tom Kollenborn called Lubkin's Trip To Weaver's Needle, which I found on Google, he states "the party moved on eastward, along the OLD MILITARY TRAIL, (First Water-Black Mountain Pack Trail). This trail was known as the First Water-Charlebois Trail in the 1950's." Also, a little further along in the article, "The next morning the photographic expedition moved on to Parker's Pass on the old First Water-Charlebois Trail." As you remarked, these statements are only as good as the source of the information. But obviously, Kollenborn had enough belief in the information to put it in the article, which was written in 2003.

[Jim Hatt]

Yeah Bob, That fits in with this topic.
You're learning. The only thing I can tell you is... If you want to dig into that subject, you need to go straight to Tom (the source) for the answers you are seeking.

If you go to http://www.superstitionmountain.info/ which has a collection of his articles, there is a link at the bottom of the page to "CONTACT TOM". I assume that link is provided for asking him questions you have about anything you read in his articles.

That's what I mean by doing your own homework.

If you do send him an e-mail and don't want it to end up in his Spam of Junk Mail folder, you need to follow some basic rules. Do not leave the subject line blank. Make the subject "Question about your article titled .....................".

If you want to improve your chances of getting a reply... Only ask one specific question per e-mail. Do not ramble on into multiple questions that are going to take him 20 minutes to reply to. Identify the document that your question is reference to. Quote the portion of the document that you have a question about, (so he will not have to look up the document and refresh his memory about what it said) and ask your question, keeping it as simple as possible.

[djui5]

Even if the clue is valid. It is pretty much useless, because there are so many possibilities for where Waltz could have seen the Soldiers, along the Apache Trail or in the mountains.

Jim

Jim,
Useless in pinpointing the location of the mine on a map maybe, but not entirely useless. If valid it does give us some idea of what type of terrain the mine would be in. If you can see the trail from the mine, but can't see the mine from the trail then one would "assume" that the mine is either high up on a cliff face or in some kinda canyon that hides itself from below. Military trails usually follow the "path of least resistance" which means they would find the easiest way through somewhere. Keep that in mind at all times

[djui5]

BTW, there is a Military map in existence from the time period that has a trail through the Superstitions on it. I haven't seen it yet in person though.

[Jim Hatt]

If you can see the trail from the mine, but can't see the mine from the trail then one would "assume" that the mine is either high up on a cliff face or in some kinda canyon that hides itself from below.

Or, it is located somewhere within sight of the modern day "Apache Trail" which is what Ely concluded was the "Military Trail". ???

Jim

[GeorgeW]

Everone knows the clue (which I don't believe) "you cannot see my mine from the millitary trail but you can see the millitary trail from the mine"

I've always interpreted this clue to mean the entrance to the mine is not easily seen from the trail. It won't appear as a big black hole. Instead, it's hidden by natural features.

There are many times I've sat a ways off trail and watched people walk by on the trail below me, unaware that I was watching them. If the entrance is behind a paloverde or some other vegetation it would be easy to observe the trail but not be easily visible to people on the trail.

[AshtonPage]

"The site was on the eastern slope of a rough canyon, he said, whose course was north to south. Opposite the mine was an old stone house – perched in a cave and evidently built long before he and Wiser had ever arrives on the scene. From his mine, high up on the slope, he could look down at the old military trail running along or across the canyon below." – Tales of the Superstitions (aptly named, I might add) by Robert Blair, pg 19