pics of OHV damage

[Ken@WonderValley]

If you are quick enough, I would just kill the link, and that
stolen picture would dissapear on that other web site

I have done that before, it makes them look real silly when
the linked picture dissapears

Wayne

Fun to toy with those nuts

If you have access to the photobucket account were this is located...

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...9/DSC02440.jpg

That is were the pic needs to be deleted, then it will dissapear off Dusa

Thanks
Wayne

There are some pretty sharp guys who post on this site that
could give those guys a run for thier money on Dusa, Even the
ones that dont always agree to what I post here. You know
who you are.

Go get um, we can bicker among ourselves here and there,
but the real people to engage those fake people like Sal on Dusa are needed.

Sal trolls Thumpertalk.com to find things to write about. If you like Sal you may use this thread. http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showth ... p?t=762091

[Sal]

I would post at Thumpertalk but after one post they closed my account--afraid their readers can't defend their "sport" against a greenie

[Waynno]

afraid

I would defend you (in some case) if you identified yourself on thumpertalk

Some there openly state they wont follow the rules.

And I take personal flack for calling people out.

But you choose to remain a anynomus troll.

At least all the real people that post here, we all know by name.

So who is the one that is

afraid

Wayne

[Ken@WonderValley]

I would post at Thumpertalk but after one post they closed my account--afraid their readers can't defend their "sport" against a greenie

I guess you ran out of gas

[Sal]

gas schmass the webmaster closed my account after only one post.

I appreciate your position regarding "pirate trails" Wayne.

At this point it's hard to work together across the aisle because of all the name calling that has been done.

The reason I show pics of environmental damage in the open areas is because I can't believe that people would be willing to damage the earth in this fashion for a few hours of fun. It's just incredible. I post these pics to see if anyone else has the same reaction as I do. When people such as yourself try to get the pics removed it makes me wonder if you are ashamed of the damage or believe (as I do) that the public would be flabbergasted at the damage done legally to our lands by OHV riders.

If OHV recreation is to become a sustainable recreation, many things must be done now...more later

[Dan]

Some people believe that if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth. Personally, I believe that if a lie is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth for stupid people. Those of us with a brain in our heads attempt to point out the lies so stupid people don't accept them as truth. That's the only reason you get resistance, Sal. You post these pics in an attempt to sway stupid people with lies. The pictures are not even of the areas of which you and others complain. They are of the most intensive use Open OHV areas, and most of these denuded landscapes were that way long before OHVs showed up. Johnson Valley, ISDRA, Dove Springs, dry lakebeds, are all areas with significant areas of little or no vegetation, naturally. You and other enviros deliberately imply they are denuded by OHVs. That is deliberate dishonesty.

No wonder so few non-enviros believe enviro groups any longer.

[EZRider]

The reason I show pics of environmental damage in the open areas is because I can't believe that people would be willing to damage the earth in this fashion for a few hours of fun. It's just incredible. I post these pics to see if anyone else has the same reaction as I do.

That is precisely why these areas are designated as OHV Open Areas, Sal.

Given the popularity of off-roading, you will likely find few who will object to that usage. It is non-compliant OHV use outside Open Areas that meets with objection.

EZ

[Goldseeker]

Will wonders never cease? EZ actually said something that makes sense. Good work EZ. As an ancient Chineese philosopher once said, the longest journey begins with a single step. Keep walking EZ.

[LeeVW]

Sal,

I have seen the damaging effects of illegal OHV use, and my reaction is probably similar to yours - that of shock and disgust. I have also seen many pristine areas with no signs of man (I hike in Wilderness areas too), along with a lot of places (Limited Use) that have some roads in them but remain in otherwise pristine condition. The majority of the desert falls into the last category - pristine lands with access roads throughout - a good balance.

The entire desert does not look like your pictures. Some places in Limited Use Areas do, and we all agree that this is bad. Some places in OHV Open Areas look like your pictures, but those areas have been set aside for that type of activity. Same as the military bases. Same as the housing tracts and strip malls. Same as the windmills and solar plants. The OHV Open Areas provide a place for OHV free play so the plants, animals, and non-motorized recreationalists can get on with their business in the other 95% of the desert (at least the land that's open to the public). The condition of an OHV Open Area is NOT an indication of the entire desert (although I have been in several OHV Open Areas that have an abundance of plants and animals).

Those who attempt to alarm the public into thinking the desert is unprotected are not honest people. What about the 14 million acres of existing Wilderness in California alone? All of that is forgotten when it's time to introduce new legislation. Talk about an inconvenient truth!

How about this - Let OHV riders have their areas for free play. Enforce the laws and cite those who ride off-trail in Limited Use Areas. Between urban sprawl, military base expansions, Wilderness designations, and the threat of alternative energy, the desert is getting smaller and smaller. Please don't lock up what little we have left!

Lee

[Dan]

Well said, Lee. I agree completely.

Somehow, a few here on DUSA end up calling me an extremist for believing pretty much as you do. While I realize I can be somewhat abrasive when arguing with those who mischaracterize my friends, myself, and our activities, there is no basis for considering me an extremist with all the varied desert and environmental activities in which I have participated over my 51 years. I realize I'm called that because I don't agree with extremist positions on the opposite side of the argument, and because those who hold those positions can't effectively argue the facts and opinions.

There is most certainly a movement afoot to lock out those who don't agree with certain political perspectives from public lands in the desert. Some of these same activists are also attempting to enact legislation so they also have control over such decisions on the private lands of other owners. Much of the legislation comes in piece-meal, and not all at once, so it is more palatable to the public, who are not paying close attention to such movements. It also gives them sufficient cover to deny this is the ultimate goal. So far, these small groups of activists have been pretty successful at it. Hence, some pretty strong limitations on where OHVs can and cannot travel, despite a lack of any other humans to become annoyed, or even endangered species. Among the best examples is the BLM regulation that federal lands are now designated "closed unless posted open". While I realize activists point to "damage to natural resources" as justification for this, the US Constitution and the resulting underlying legal system are supposed to operate under some general presumptions. One of those is that citizens accused of a violation of law are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Another of those presumptions is that citizens generally have a right to visit, freely travel upon, and operate on public lands, unless our elected officials, in representing the will of the people, create limitations on such activities. The intent of our Constitution is for government to bear the burden of unspecified limitation, not individual citizens. In other words, the general presumption under our Constitution is that everything is legal, unless we agree to make it illegal. The opposite is a recipe for widespread tyranny. Our Founders recognized the absurdity of having to write laws to legalize every activity, and that such a system originates as the ultimate tyrannical state.

That is not at all what our Founders intended, and in fact, is just the opposite of their intent. They intended for all activities to be legal unless specifically forbidden by law, enacted by representatives elected by the people, enforced by our executive branch, and interpreted by justices speaking for the intent of the Founders.

I think it's safe to say the Founding Fathers never envisioned an omnipotent federal agency, with no check or balance, beholden to the executive branch and wealthy, lawsuit-happy, and politically-motivated special interest groups, to turn those presumptions on their head, and to turn the entire process against the presumption that citizens may travel freely as they wish, in effect, making all access illegal unless the agency specifically deems it legal.

I also realize that we didn't have motor vehicles in those days, and the Founders had not contemplated this. I also realize that the technicality of claiming access is open and notorious by foot is patently ridiculous on the 95% of our landmass that is not settled. But, that's the genius. We still have judges, we still have a Constitution, and we still have the writings of our Founders, all of which are supposed to uphold these same basic principles and presumptions, even at great difficulty to our Federal Government and the special interest groups who claim to be defenders of wilderness. They are still supposed to find in favor of positive access for the public to public lands, even if it's with a spacecraft. It's the beauty of having inviolable principles.

Today, they have been violated. We stood still for military bases, the creation of wilderness, and we actually encourage private property (unless we're enviro groups who find it much more difficult to regulate and dictate on private property). IT's time we the public stand up for public access to public lands that remain. Some don't like it, but if it bothers them so much, they should go settle their own nation and develop their own Constitution. Quit messing with ours.