The Peralta Stone Maps The Stone Crosses & The Latin Heart
Maps To The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine ?
By Jim Hatt
About the author
Jim Hatt first heard the story about the Lost Dutchman Mine, which he now believes is one of the locations on the Peralta Stone Maps, from his great-grandfather Earl Arthur Hatt in 1956. Earl had personally known members of the Petrasch family who were among some of the earliest searchers for the lost mine of Jacob Waltz (the Dutchman). Earl maintained little more than a casual interest in what eventually grew to be one of the most famous legends in the history of lost mines in the entire Southwest. The story smoldered through four generations of the Hatt family until it fell upon Jim’s ears and burned into his soul.
Jim dreamed of going to Arizona and searching for the lost mine all of his life, but it was not until 1989 when his children were grown and starting separate lives of their own, that he felt free to pursue his own dreams. Jim left a full time lucrative career in commercial nuclear power and began living on intermittent consulting contracts in the nuclear field, and odd jobs around Apache Junction, Arizona in order to dedicate more and more time to chasing the legend. It was a decision that he has never regretted in the years that have passed since. In 1998
Jim was selected as one of five men to be profiled in a documentary filmed for A&E about the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine. Also profiled in the documentary were Tom Kollenborn, Bob Corbin, Clay Worst and Ron Feldman. One day of filming was dedicated to an interview of Senator John McCain filmed in the shadow of the Superstition Mountains, where as a younger man he had also left his footprints along the rocky trails in the land of legends.
“If someone is surreptitiously working the Lost Dutchman Mine, and it is in the Superstition Wilderness Area, they are breaking the law, and they are making lots of money while they are doing it. You interrupt them . . . and their main goal is going to be to keep you quiet!” ~Jim Hatt~
The above quoted from Jim Hatt in the documentary THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE filmed by Greystone Communications for A&E on location in the Superstition Mountains in 1998.
Lost Dutchman Maps
Maps to buried treasure and lost mines in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona are not at all uncommon. Most local residents of Apache Junction, Arizona who’ve lived there for any length of time can go to a desk or dresser drawer in their home and pull out a handful of maps they have collected over the years from newspapers, magazines, books, and even from various websites on the Internet. These maps, when followed correctly, are supposed to lead to some long lost and forgotten cache or natural deposit of gold somewhere in the Superstition Wilderness or surrounding area.
Unfortunately, many of these maps have been redrawn to fit specific areas with landmarks that could be found, when the original area shown on the map could not, the intent being to dupe an investor into financially backing a quest for a lost mine or buried treasure.. Others have been deliberately altered and surreptitiously circulated by greedy individuals of low moral character whose intent was to cast doubt on a map that they themselves believed to be of great value.
Peralta Stone Maps
Without a doubt the most fascinating of all these maps is a set of stone slabs, each of which measures approximately 18 inches wide, 12 inches high, and 2 inches thick. The slabs feature beautifully carved symbols of a Trail, a Horse, a Dagger, and a Priest, and one has a recessed area for another stone that is shaped like a heart, as well as numerous wavy lines that appear to be topographical features. These stone slabs, or maps, have come to be known as the “Peralta Stone Maps” because the names “Pedro” and “Miguel” are carved on them leading to the reasonable conclusion that these names refer to the same two men that are spoken of in the well-documented stories concerning a Pedro and Miguel Peralta who are reported to have descended from mining families in Sonora, Mexico who worked mines in what is now as the state of Arizona.
Reportedly, the Stone Maps were found sometime in the late 1940’s by a Police Officer from Portland, Oregon named Travis Tumlinson. According to the story Tumlinson told, he was passing through Arizona on a trip and pulled off to the side of Hwy 60 east of Apache Junction to take a stretch break, and while walking around stumbled over the corner of one of the stones sticking up out of the dirt. In 1995, Al Reser, a longtime resident of Apache Junction and lost mine hunter, took me to a location on Hwy 60 just west of Florence Junction where he pointed to the spot that a man named Charlie Miller, who had been a close friend of Tumlinson’s brother, told him was the spot where the Stone Maps had been found.
Unlike their paper counterparts, the Stone Maps remain unmodified by the passage of time, but they do not escape the haze of mystery, suspicion, and doubt that surround all so-called “Treasure Maps.” Clay Worst, another longtime resident of Apache Junction and lost mine hunter, took me to a different area where the late author Bob Ward had personally shown him the exact spot where someone other than Travis Tumlinson had found the Stone Maps. I also read another account that stated that a third individual claimed he found the Stone Maps on the south side of US 60, several miles east of Florence Junction. According to this account, both men claimed to have sold the Stone Maps to Tumlinson for the meager sum of $100.
Recorded history as well as simple logic does not back up their claims. If either of the other men had found the Stone Maps, surely they would not have sold them before first trying to establish their monetary value. In seeing what the market would bear they obviously would have had to show the stones to a good number of individuals. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever said that they saw anyone in possession of the original four Stone Maps prior to the date that Tumlinson claimed to have found them. Furthermore, why would they sell them to an individual from out of state (Tumlinson) who was just passing through when there was any number of financially healthy and well-known local treasure hunters who, I am sure, would have shelled out a lot more than $100 for the maps if they had been offered to them.
Personally, I believe Travis Tumlinson found the Stone Maps right where Al Reser showed me. Every scholarly individual who has examined the stone maps has been unable to conclude when, or where, or by whom, the maps were created. One consistent conclusion they could come to, was that there are definitely two different authors using two different methods of making inscriptions on the faces of the stones. The first author was a master of his craft and very consistent in the depth, width and style of his carvings, while the second author lacked the skill of the first author, and his carvings are little more than scratchings on the surface. Apparently someone that knew how to read the maps, or had actually been to the area they applied to, was giving verbal instructions on how to use them to someone else that was informally scratching these instructions on the face of the stones
For more than 50 years the Peralta Stone Maps have been the subject of controversy and debate. Over this time period those who’ve studied the maps have remained firmly divided into two separate camps of believers and nonbelievers.
Except for the maps themselves, the believers have little to nothing in the way of physical evidence to support their arguments that these maps are authentic records of a one hundred or more year old mining operation in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona.
The nonbelievers have even less evidence to support their arguments that, for example, these stone maps were created as part of some fraudulent scheme to extort money from unsuspecting investors. Interestingly enough, even the nonbelievers are as irresistibly drawn to any discussion or article about the stone maps as the believers are! These maps possess some unexplainable quality that grips the imagination and does not let go whether a person believes them to be authentic or not.
The carvings on the stone maps suggest that they are Spanish or Mexican in origin and the names Pedro & Miguel carved on them suggest they may have been created, or at least once owned, by the Peralta family of Sonora, Mexico. As is well known, the Peralta name is indelibly etched into the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine, because Jacob Waltz himself stated on several occasions that his mine was an old Peralta mine.
One puzzling aspect of the original four stone maps found by Tumlinson, which the believers have had a hard time explaining since the day they were found, is that they just don’t seem to lead you anywhere specific. There is no clearly defined starting point and no obvious landmark of any kind that lets you know when you have reached the end of the trail. For those who claim to know how to read them and who have succeed in working their way through the mountains to what they believe is, (based on their interpretations of the maps) the end of the trail, there is never anything there that can be directly linked to anything on the stone maps or that can be used to verify that they have arrived in the right place.
Until now, no one has been able to identify the end of the trail because they have failed to study all the pieces of the stone map set. The set includes not only the Horse/Priest, Heart, and Trail maps, but also the lesser-known Latin Heart, found in the same general area as the other four pieces but many years later.
The key to the Peralta Stone Maps is the Latin Heart. Once you understand how to use it, it provides the information that can be used to verify that you have reached the end of the trail. Only after that has been verified, can you begin to understand the information on the Priest/Horse map.
The “Latin Heart”
The Latin Heart is the most important of all the stones in the Peralta Stone Map set and the only stone in the set that provides specific information pertaining to the location of the mines or caches depicted on the other stones. Like most people, my first exposure to the Latin Heart was in 1990 when I read Bob Ward’s book Ripples of Lost Echoes and saw the drawings there showing both sides of the Latin Heart.
On the front side of the Latin Heart is an arrangement of Latin words. Unfortunately, due to wear on the front side of it, the person who drew the paper copy was unable to make out three words, instead drawing empty boxes in these three locations. My research determined that the Latin words on the Heart, which can be read, are written in what is referred to as “ancient” Latin, a form of Latin, which in some cases is significantly different from modern Latin.
Although the back of the heart is covered with symbols that appear to be Roman numerals, as Bob Ward suggested in his book, I was constantly being told by people in the field of mathematics that they could not be Roman numerals because Roman numerals do not use symbols like (((((( and ))))))) nor is any symbol repeated more than three times. Well, through persistence and the wonders of the Internet, a friend of mine, Louis Smith of Alpine, Arizona, was able to provide the answer to the meaning of the symbols. The symbols turned out to be, like the Latin words, a form of “ancient” Roman numerals that are different from the Roman numeral system in use today. Translations of the Latin words and Roman Numerals are given in the tables at the end of this article.
I never gave much thought to the Latin Heart until one day when I saw a copy of it on Al Reser’s dinning room table. I asked Al about it, and he began telling me the history of the Latin Heart, as he knew it. He told me the story about how he had learned from Charlie Miller exactly where Tumlinson had found the Stone Maps and that several other people also knew about that location. According to Al, one of them went back to that spot years after Tumlinson gave up on finding any more stone map pieces, and that person, being a little more persistent and searching a wider area than Tumlinson had, found the Latin Heart lying right on top of the ground.
Al may have mentioned his name, or maybe not, if he did I can no longer recall it. Al never saw the Latin Heart Stone himself, but he told me that a wrangler by the name of Bill Hinton or Hidden my memory is not clear, who also had known Charlie Miller, knew the whole story about the Latin Heart, had seen the original many times, and could verify everything Al said. After hearing Al’s story I developed a sincere interest in the Latin Heart, but no matter how hard I tried I could never get Al to allow me to make a copy of his copy of it.
Out of frustration, I finally said something to Al about not needing his copy because there was one in Bob Ward’s book. Al grinned and made a remark that suggested his copy was in some way different from the one in Ward’s book. For months I tried to locate someone else who had a copy of the heart other than the one in Ward’s book, then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew I was searching for a copy of the Latin Heart other than the one that was in Bob Ward’s book. During the conversation he announced that he had located a copy, which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, but said was currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with the copies of the Latin Heart shown above.
The way to solve the mystery of the Peralta Stone Maps is to follow the directions engraved right on them, “BUSCA EL MAPA,” Study the Maps, and then follow them to where you think they lead. When you have arrive at what you believe to be the end of the trail, you remove the original Heart insert from the cavity in the top Trail Map and insert the Latin Heart into the cavity (This explains why the Heart Cavity was cut out in the upper Trail Map and the original Heart is removable. “BUSCA EL COAZON,” Study the “Latin Heart”. If you find the landmarks specified on the Latin Heart in the vicinity around you, YOU ARE AT THE END OF THE TRAIL!
The only thing left to do is to locate the points identified as “MEUS” on the Latin Heart. One of them is most likely going to have a number of the landmarks around it that Lost Dutchman Mine hunters have been searching for since the ‘Ole Dutchman died in 1891, and will validate the link between the Peralta Stone Maps and the Lost Dutchman Mine.
STONE CROSSES AND THE LATIN HEART
On March 10, 1983, Michael Bilbrey, then 32 years old and already a thirteen-year veteran in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine, filed a mining claim, LD8, in an area where he believed that the Peralta Stone Maps led to. In an article in The Arizona Republic on Tuesday, February 1, 1983, Charles Kelly reported that Bilbrey stated he had assay reports on samples taken from his claim that showed a gold content in sufficient quantity to validate the filing of a mining claim. In the same article, Larry Soehlig, a Lands and Mineral Officer for the Tonto National Forest, is quoted as saying, “Based on what Mr. Bilbrey’s proposed he’d like to do, there’s probably enough (gold) there to let him continue with that little (mining) process.” Michael Bilbrey did find gold there.
This gold, however, was not the driving force behind Michael’s many future trips to this remote and lonely location among towering cliffs and deep valleys. Having ended up in this area following his own personal interpretation of the Peralta Stone Maps, he was constantly on the lookout for anything that looked out of place in the natural environment or which might suggest that “man”, that is, the Peraltas or Jacob Waltz (The Dutchman) had been there before him.
During one of his trips to his mining claims Michael accidentally discovered two stone crosses, each approximately 12 inches high, 6 inches wide, and a little more than 1 inch thick, partially buried in the loose gravel that covered the side of the slope near where he had been working. Both Stone Crosses had engravings on one side and nothing on the other.
The first cross has words written on it in Spanish, “EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE”, “EL CURVA DE LOS SOMEO MONTANA” which translated says something like: “The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe” and “The Cave of Hat Mountain.”
The second cross has a map-like orientation of symbols on it, similar to the symbols carved on the Peralta Stone Maps and consistent with the landmarks named on the front side of the Latin Heart.
It is doubtful that Michael was aware of the Latin Heart at that time, but he could not have missed the similarities between the symbols on the Stone Crosses and the Peralta Stone Maps. Soon after making this discovery he appears to have lost all interest in his mining claims, and redirected his efforts towards understanding the stone crosses and searching for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe.
Because Michael could not prove his story about how he found the Stone Crosses, very few people outside his immediate group of friends believed his story. Michael endured one of the most unpleasant set of circumstances a treasure hunter can experience. He found the Stone Crosses at a time when he was alone in the mountains. An event took place, which could not be repeated in front of witnesses. A single witness to the event, or even a dozen, may not have been of any help in correctly interrupting the inscriptions on the crosses, but at least Michael would have had someone he could share the frustration with when he was later accused of fabricating the crosses himself. Accusations that to this day still reverberate around campfires and dining room tables.
Eventually when their combined efforts produced no treasure, even his friends began to doubt him and lost interest in the crosses and the alleged treasure they applied to. Being the only person left on the planet who knew for certain that he had not fabricated the crosses himself, Michael continued the search for The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe alone. According to people that knew Michael he remained a dedicated searcher for many years. He even relocated from San Diego, Calif. To Scottsdale, Ariz. to be closer to the Superstition Mountains and be able to dedicate more time to his search.
There is nothing in recorded history; legend or lore, to indicate that Michael ever found the treasure in which he never stopped believing was out there somewhere. Believing myself that the Stone Crosses are authentic relics which do apply to a buried treasure of some kind, I can only assume that Michael’s failure to locate that treasure was due to the fact that he assumed the treasure was located somewhere in the immediate area where he found the crosses, and never gave enough consideration to the idea that they may have been dropped where he found them accidentally by someone (or something) just passing through the area.
Conclusion
As the story goes, the Peraltas had their mules loaded with all that they could carry, which would have included the Stone Maps, and were attempting to get out of the mountains when they were attacked by Apaches in great numbers.
In my scenario of the events that took place, it was during the chaos of the battle that the mule carrying the Stone Maps (including the Stone Crosses and Latin Heart} made up his mind that it was every man and mule for himself and set out on his own for the only way he knew out of the mountains (the way he had come in directly south towards Florence Junction). Meanwhile, the Peraltas fought their way toward the open desert using a shorter path they knew about which ultimately brought them to the western slope of the main Superstition Mountain, where legend says the battle ended in the Peralta’s defeat by the Apaches.
The mule loaded with the Stone Maps could have escaped the battle and passed through the area where Bilbrey found the Stone Crosses, which had fallen there from the packs where they settled into the loose gravel and lay undisturbed until Bilbrey found them in the early 1980’s more than 100 years later. The mule then continued on, heading south with the remaining pieces of the stone maps still on his back, making it all the way to Florence Junction before they started breaking loose from the packs. The Latin Heart falling first by itself, and the remaining stones falling together where Tumlinson found them in the late 1940’s.
It is true that Tumlinson said that he dug the maps out of the ground, but anyone that has lived in the desert, knows that heavy objects left lying on the ground will sink into it when the rains soften the ground. If they lay there through 100 years of monsoon rains, I would expect them to be at least partially submerged and have to be dug out of the ground. This is consistent with Michael Bilbrey’s story about having to dig the Stone Crosses out of the ground where they had settled.
Had the Stone Crosses, the Latin Heart, the Priest/Horse Map, the two Trail Maps, and the first Stone Heart all been found in the same place at the same time, someone might then have been able to evaluate them as a complete set, determine the correct way to make use of them and locate the mines or treasure they pertain to long before now.
All photographs used in this article are of full-scale Museum Quality Reproductions of the Peralta Stone Maps, Stone Crosses and Latin Heart
Latin to English Translations
DESILIENS AQUA AURUM (water falling down over gold)
DESILIENS: falling down or declining
AQUA: water
AURUM: gold of golden color, CRATER . . . possibly a Low area like a valley MEUS (Mine) A possession or an excavation for metal or mineral SPECUS (Cave) or a void of some kind CACUMEN (Extreme High Point) point, tip, top, peak NOTO MEDULLA (Observe the Middle)
NOTO: observe or notice
MEDULLA: marrow, middle, heart (center) FAUCES (Narrow Pass) Small throat, gullet, neck, strait, channel, pass or gorge TABULA (flat top area) plank, board or table TRANSEO ECCLESIA (Religious Assembly Area)
TRANSEO: to cross, pass, pass over or through
ECCLESIA: a church or gathering place for worshipers NOTO (Observe) to look for, observe, write down or record, brand, indicate, denote, or to mark (a place of importance) DOMUS (House or Camp) A place of residence FORNIX (Arch) Vaulted Arch, something high that can be passed under INTER SEPTENTRIONES ET OCCASUM SOLIS (Northwest)
INTER: between, among or during
SEPTENTRIONES: Great Bear (NORTH)
OCCASUM SOLIS: Sunset, (WEST) (Between North and West) NOTO TRIANGULUM (Observe the Triangle) to look for, observe, write down, record, Brand, indicate, denote, or mark “The Triangle.” MERIDIES CACUMEN (Highest Point to the South)
MERIDIES: South
CACUMEN: point, tip, top, peak or Highest Point MONETA (Smelter or Arrasta) A place where valuable items are worked with CAVERNA AURUM (Cavern of gold)
CAVERNA: cave
AURUM: gold BARATHRUM . . . (Lowest point)
Ancient Roman Numeral Translations
1-I
2-II
3-III
4-IV or IIII
5-V
6-VI or G
7-VII
8-VIII
9-VIIII or IX
10-X
11-XI
12-XII
13-XIII
14- XIV
15- XV
16- XVI
17- XVII
18- XVII or XIIX
19- XIX or XVIIII
20-XX
30-XXX
40-XL or XXX
50-L
60-LX
70-LXX
80-LXXX or XX(
90-X( or LXXXX
100-(
200-((
300-(((
400-((((
500-D or I
600-I)(
700-I)((
800-I)(((
900-I)((((
1000-(I) or M
10,000-((I))
100.000(((I)))
Special Thanks to Doug Stewart who maintains a website at: http://www.lost dutchman.com for his much appreciated consultation in the preparation of this work.
the 1847 on the peralta stones ....
is not a date .....
it looks like a date but , it is not a date ...
The 1847 on the Stone maps
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Hello Blindbowman,
Your belief that the 1847 on the stone maps is not a date is something that has weighed heavily on my mind for a long time. I can make arguments for both sides of that debate, but they are all based on speculation and gut feelings. If as I believe, the Stone Crosses are a part of the Peralta Stone Map set, they support your belief because 1751 appears at the bottom of one of them. Assuming that the numbers 1751 are a date on the cross,how well does the date 1751 for being the time period when the Stone maps were made fit with your theory?
I will not press you for information that you may have invested a lot of time and effort to obtain, but is there any chance you can tell us what you think the 1847 stands for if it is not a date?
LOL jim
ya if you want to start the bigist dam gold rush of fools this earth has ever seen . its a shipsheading in complex binary code ! . most latin navagation was done in shipsheadings because most learn from shipcaptains ...yes ,i can plot and prove it and thanks dude i did not now there was another stone with a date ... i already know the formatted cope .. do you want to solve the legend of the LDM, i wanted to solve all of them !is that OK lol do you got time to be stinking wealthy ?
Blindbowman,
In response to your request to discuss this in private via e-mail.
I saw your request in another thread, but I can't seem to reply to it in that thread. The POST A REPLY button isn't coming up on that screen.
Yes, I will discuss this in e-mail if you are concerned about privacy. You can send e-mail to me at:
arizona_drifter@yahoo.com
better to copy and paste the address to avoid typos.
I look forward to hearing from you,
Jim
P.S. What would I do if you made me wealthy you asked?
Probably live out my remainig years on a sailboat going from one small island to another in the South Pacific!
And, I WOULD NEED A NAVIGATOR if you are interested.
lol
you think to small jim , 85' sunseeker . been around the earth 3 times so far ... lol will do ...
Sailing around the world Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Blindbowman,
Well click on my name above and send me an email then.
I won't go start looking at boats just yet, but I might pull out a few magazines and look at some pictures!
Jim
sometimes
they dont get dude . lets talk and we will see if the others email us or not ..
show of hands
i guess my work dose nt mean anything, than i should just tell everyone where the mine is right here on this site page .. right ? how many want to know where the LDM is for real ?
Theories
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Bowman,
Nobody said you theories are meaningless. I happen to think that some of them have a lot of merit. The bottom line is, until the mine is found, all any of us have are theories. The only way to tell how good they are is to put your boots on the trail and see where they lead you to. Or you can post the location right here like you suggested above and see if it leads anybody else to it.
Jim
your cute when your mad lol
3?
with 3 answers . i gave you the answer now ask your self the questions .
a waste of time ...
they come and go
partners dont last long around here .LOL ,,.. as for the lost Dutchman mine and the jesuit treasures . soon ...
hi JIm
just to show you i hold no ill will to you . the roman numbers are not roman at all . they are a more complex binary than the other and it took me some time to brake it down . but they are elevation messurements ... beyond that i have to much to do so i hope you find what your looking for ... i did ...
You make it sound so easy!
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Good job blindbowman, When you dig it up, send us all a picture.
you forgot
jim as i told you the Latin heart dose not go to the Ldm . it goes to a location 14 miles north . look at the eleavations they are not in the area at all . look at the Knife handle . you can figer this out if you try for a few years . get the point . no i am not jokeing look at the point of the knife it points to the next jesuit treasure to the north .... it is that easy for me ...go luck .partner ...
Ok jim to late now
blindbowman
You 5 men ar to late now, jim the fool is on you now. clay Worst will get me at the areport and i will show wher evrything is! he is the only one to take up on my terms so he gits it all! i don't even want any of it all i want is the all to knoe that i found it. and gave it all to clay. i will make my mony when the movie comes out!!!!! your to slow jim so you loose!
Where were the stone maps found
Roger
So. Calif.
Hello Jim,
First let me state that I enjoyed your article very much and I will be following the discussions that follow with great interest!
A couple of questions come to mind that I am hoping you or someone else can answer.
I have seen discussions about the stone maps on other websites where people claim that the stone maps were not found by Travis Tumlinson in the area stated in your article and that he actually got them from a relative that may have stole them from a church in Mexico. The same authors on those websites also claim that Tumlinson made copies of the stone maps and may have changed some of the information on them in the process.
How do you account for the difference of opinions in where the stone maps came from and the possibility that what we have all come to accept as the originals have been altered?
Roger
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Roger, I canot be held accountable for things written by other people. I am familiar with both of those stories, but due to the lack of creditable sources and supporting evidence, I have never given either of them much thought.
Jim Hatt
the real blindbowman
the blindbowman
the reply ok jim you lose now , was not made by the blindbowman ! i am the real blindbowman and who made that reply is a total ass .....
i hold no ill will to anyone here or to jim hatt and i have gave no one any data of value .. and yes i have found the house in the cave on octber 27 th when i was in the mts for the frist time and have prove i have found the LDM ...
The stones
MC
Ohio
I did not take the time to read every word printed on the opinions of each person returning suggestions. However, I find the facts posted intriguing enough to ask the obvious question: "Whether or not the stones appear to be original, is besides the fact that has ANYONE confirmed the stones to belong to any specific region or closer yet, to a specific area resembling the formations and materials that they imply to be a part of the Superstition Mountains?" Personally, if I wanted to mark an area in rememberance of passing times (eras) I would assure the markings to be of permanent developements. And if I took the time to chisel out the details of this area, I would not make it near as obvious as the naked eye would "read". I would use the materials close at hand I.E. ... the stones of that immediate area, not thinking in the 17-1800's of modern science detecting certain traceable links to specific areas from minerals or elements found in these stones. Which brings up another thought, ... I guess they took the time to chisel the stones during the rest periods, or at night after the mining had stopped? Apparently they spent detailed time making maps as opposed to mining ores that would land them rich and never have to err, ummm, ................ labor/toil again?
You have made some valid observations and presented some equally valid questions. The answers require a basic background knowledge of the legends and lore of the Superstition Mountains. According to the legends, Mexican mining activities in the 1700-1800's were done by large groups of people or families. I am only logically assuming that one or two of these people would be designated as Map Makers. I suspect that they took notes about things they saw while traveling the trails and used these notes to create the stone maps once they reached their base camp where they expected to remain stationary for a length of time. There are three different types of stone involved in the complete set of maps, and yes. Each one can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area.
some what agree
the blindbowman
there are a few opioions about the stones , i beleave the stones were made by one man , the leader of the jesuits and the stones had nothing to do with anyone other than the jesuit Kino .. he had planed to start a new city with rich mines and what happen was his own greed got thousands killed and was a shame of his part in the killings ...everyone lost . the jesuits the spainish and the Apache .. something you all may not know or have herd of is there is in fact a back way into the tunnle . only the Apache knew it and used it to get guns to the indains working the mine ..when the spainish were working the mines they slave the apache and got what they earned ....
as far as the stones go, yes they do fit a given place in the superstitions and when i make my reseach public i will post the fact and the reasons for this ....Kino could have made these stones in his sleep . he was the best map maker for many years in this area ... he dose not sign his work because his profile dose that for him ! i have in fact sent data to the tonto nationial forst offices that dose in fact relate the stones to a given area of the superstitions ...
how is it going jim ? we may get to see those mines yet ! .... i can now prove relateionship between the tayopa and the LDM ...waiting for the district Ranger to over look if anything is man made at the sites ...if i get the permits would you 5 men like to visit the sites ? i hope the rest of the stones are in the tunnle with the jesuit treasure trove ...it would be something to see the hole set of stones ...
test
Am I missing something?
ORO GRANDE
Jim,
As you probably already know, The stone maps have been the subject of heated debate on several other websites and your articles on this site have been quoted from many times in those debates. Something that puzzles me is that your article on dating the stone maps leads me to believe that it is your opinion that there is no way anyone can positively date the stone maps because they are not old enough to use scientific methods on, yet in this article you seem to believe that the stone maps are authentic (old) maps to some hidden treasure or lost mine. Are you contradicting yourself or am I missing something?
ORO GRANDE
ORO GRANDE
You are correct in your belief that I am a believer in the authenticity of the stone maps. You are also correct about my opinion that there is no way modern science can accurately date the inscriptions on them (at this late date). I think your confusion is due to your not fully understanding the difference between old and old enough to use radioisotope methodology to date something, and the limitations of both biological and radiological methods of dating. I wrote the article on Dating the Stone Maps and posted it here to refute arguments that a simple carbon dating test could answer the question about the age of the stone maps. In that article I presented no conclusions about the age or authenticity of the maps. My only intention was to keep non-believers from using the lack of carbon dating evidence as evidence that the stone maps were not authentic. There is little I can do to refute Expert opinions that are contradictory to what I believe about the maps, except point out holes in their theories like I did in the article posted by Gene Botts. But, when we are talking about scientific evidence, my professional background affords me the luxury of being able to provide an Expert opinion of my own which is based on scientific fact. Charles Kenworthy and several other professional treasure hunters enlisted the help of many different Experts in several fields that did examine the original stones. As a result of these examinations, Chuck and others came to the conclusion that the maps were old enough to be authentic and warrant the expenditure of their time and resources in an attempt to locate whatever the maps lead to. Unfortunately the results of these examinations were never made public for obvious reasons, and we have no way of knowing if there was any biological evidence remaining on them to be evaluated at that time, or what their conclusions were based on. Evidence supporting the authenticity of the stone maps always gets filed away in locked cabinets, while expert opinions refuting their authenticity continue to get published for all to see.
While on the subject of Expert opinions: This is a subject that I get a lot of e-mail about from people that either do not know how or do not wish to post a question in this website. I have never been shy about posting my own opinions and refuting those of others when I felt that they were speaking beyond the extent of their knowledge and training. Over time and by way of a number of replies, I have developed a standard response to questions about the opinions of experts that claim the stone maps are modern Fakes.
The most recent Expert opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out.
In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says:
There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery.
She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I dont understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal.
But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols.
Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners?
Weathering How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them.
Discoloration The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed.
Headstones A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years.
She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didnt the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded?
She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldnt any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen?
Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation!
In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says:
The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found.
Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove?
Additionally Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them.
Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period?
Again, these Experts are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these evaluations are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility. Some people with big degrees will try to wiggle anything into an explaination to keep from saying the words I dont know.
I am a little disappointed with the author of the article and publisher of Arizona Highways for not researching the matter further and presenting a more balanced report that included reactions to the Expert opinions provided and some opposing views from the other side of the fence.
Fortunately for those of us that stand firmly on the side of the stone map debate and believe they are genuine artifacts, there is a very dedicated researcher in Southern California by the name of Mike McChesney. Mike has dug very deep into the history of the stone maps and has re-discovered that there was an expert evaluation of them done back in the early 60s that many of us had heard about but never really went looking for. This evaluation was performed by Professor Stephen Dana who was the head of the Geology Dept at Redlands University, in Redlands California, when there may have been some biological evidence remaining in the inscriptions. Although this evaluation, like so many others, is probably filed away somewhere in a locked cabinet, it may be retrievable, and Mike is currently in the process of trying to obtain a copy of it. It was written by professor Dana at the conclusion of his evaluation, which according to Mikes research was later used by the FBI in a federal investigation to conclude that the inscriptions on the stones were over 100 years old in the early 1960s.
The whole story is very interesting to say the least, and I will do my best to encourage Mike to share it all with us at deseretusa.com when he receives the report, (whatever the result is) and forms his own conclusions about the age of the inscriptions.
Jim Hatt
blindbowman if you still are around would you e-mail me at
germs50@yahoo.com THANKS!!!???!!
Stone Maps Since 1949
Mike McChesney
Laguna Niguel, Ca.
Hey Folks,
My name is Mike McChesney, and I got involved in this mess on another forum, when I saw someone post information that I knew to be incorrect. We went back and forth on a number of particulars, and he began asking questions that I had to actually research to find the answers to.
Well, once I started researching the answers, I found a LOT of contradictory stories and "facts". I decided to take a part of the Stone maps' Story that should be easy enough to prove or disprove. The history of the Stone Maps from 1949 until present. If I could prove or disprove the parts of that history, I would have better grounds to either believe or disbelieve in the possibility of them being authentic Treasure Maps.
I took all the stories I knew of, and picked out most of the common elements: Tumlinson finding the stones, Tumlinson and his brother using the stones, acquisition of the stones by Clarence O. Mitchell (CEO of MOEL Inc), verification of the stones by Professor Stephen Dana of Redlands University, SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) investigation and trial of MOEL, possession and testing of the stones by the FBI, and how the stones came to be at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum.
I began calling, emailing, and snail mailing various legal and historical archives, individuals, schools, and papers. Here is what I know for certain as of now:
Travis Tumlinson came into possession of the Stone Maps in 1949. How he got them is another story. It is possible that he found them, but that seems to me to be less likely than him getting them from his Treasure Hunting Father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson (no joke). If he did get them from his father, who got them from a person that stole them from under the floor at the Arizpe Mission (around the turn of the century), that would give them MUCH more credibility towards being authentic treasure maps to me. BUT.........
For the most part, Travis Tumlinson kept them a secret from 1949, until after his death in 1961. He made about a dozen trips into the Superstitions from his home in Hood River, Oregon from 1949 until his health began to fail in about 1956. at this time, he gave the Stone Maps to his brother Robert Tumlinson. Robert was retired (living in Oregon), and living on a small pension. He kept the stones under his bed in his apartment. He finally found a partner in his landlord, Gene Davis. Gene and Robert travelled to the Superstitions about four times, but could not solve the stone maps. When Robert's health began to fail (he was older than Travis), he gave the stones back to Travis and his wife Alleen. Robert died, and Travis died shortly after, in 1961.
After Travis' death, his wife Alleen sold the stones to a long time family friend. A Clarence O. Mitchell. He was the CEO of MOEL Inc. MOEL stood for "Mining, Oil, Exploration, and Leasing". The purpose of the company was to solicit investors to give them money to purchase land in mineral rich areas of the country, and then lease the mineral rights to that same land to mining and oil companies. He bought the stones personally, and tried to keep them completely separate from the company.
Sometime right after purchasing the stones, Mitchell had them examined by Professor Stephen Dana (Geology at Redlands University), and Martin Stout (Geology at Cal State University at L.A.). I have yet to get a hard copy of these examinations, but the results were supposed to have been that they were at least 100 years old (in the early 1960s). Stephen Dana died shortly after retiring from Redlands University in 1986. He had taken all his papers home when he left. I have been in contact with his widow Jane Dana. I am currently waiting to see if she can find anything in his papers.
On June 12th of 1964, Life Magazine came out with an article about the stones. This was their public unveiling. It also brought them to the attention of the Federal Government. In september of 1964, the SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) filed charges against MOEL Inc. for the selling of unregistered stock to investors. Some people have made a big deal about this, but it was NO BIG DEAL! They had just failed to file ONE FORM with the SEC at the beginning of the years. The trial lasted ONE DAY (30 Sept 1964). The result of the trial was that MOEL Inc. was enjoined (stopped) from selling stock, until the next year, after they filed the proper form.
In the course of the investigation, the SEC learned about the Stone Maps. The enlisted the aid of the FBI to see if they could verify the authenticity of the Stones. If they could be PROVED (let me repeat that word: PROVED) to be older than 100 years, they would fall under the Arizona Antiquities Acts and be the property of the state. If they were found to be newer fakes, the SEC would add fraud charges to the unlicensed stock sales charges. The FBI took the stones to ASU, and the results were inconclusive. The FBI learned about the Dana/Stout Tests, and got in touch with Professor Dana. After interviewing him, they asked for and received a signed affidavit as to his conclusions. I don't have a hard copy of just what his conclusions were, but the stones were returned to Mitchell before the trial even bagan. It also explains Bob Corbin's story about seeing the stones in the possession of the FBI while he was visiting the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix, and the agents telling him that it was their "belief" that the stones were "at least" 100 years old.
When MOEL broke up in 1969, Mitchell had a second set of stone maps made. They were engraved just like the originals. He gave two originals and two copies to one of his partners, and he took two originals and two copies. In 1970, Mitchell donated his set of Stone Maps to The Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum/AL Flagg Foundation. He did this as part of a big tax break from the state.
That is what I know right now. I am waiting on a copy of the SEC investigation file (complete), and the final word from Professor Dana's widow.
What do I believe? As of now (barring any solid new evidence), I think the Stone Maps are authentic Treasure Maps. Who made them? No idea. Where do they lead? No idea.
Best of luck,
Mike
One lastr thing
Mike McChesney
Laguna Niguel, Ca.
If anybody questions whether the Tumlinsons faked them, or knew them to be fakes, don't look at what people say. Look at what they do:
Travis Tumlinson kept the stones a secret (for the most part) for the entire time he owned them. He made about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to Apache Junction, Arizona. Does that look like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! He NEVER attempted to sell them while they were in his possession. Does that sound like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE!
Robert Tumlinson kept the stones in a box under his bed. He never attempted to sell them, even though he was relatively poor, living on a VERY small retirement pension. He found a man who was intersested in them, but did he sell them to him? NOPE! He got the man to pay for them to go to the Superstitions about four times. When his health began to fail, did he sell them? NOPE! He gave them back to his brother.
Did the sick Travis try selling them now? NOPE! He died in possession of the stones.
When Travis died, his widow Alleen sold the stone maps to a long time family friend Clarence Mitchell. Would you sell something you thought or knew to be fake to a long time family friend? I wouldn't!
After purchasing the stones, Mitchell kept their existence mostly a secret for three years. Does that sound like he thought them to be fakes? Not to me.
Best,
Mike
One Last Thing
Mike McChesney
Laguna Niguel, Ca.
If anybody questions whether the Tumlinsons faked them, or knew them to be fakes, don't look at what people say. Look at what they do:
Travis Tumlinson kept the stones a secret (for the most part) for the entire time he owned them. He made about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to Apache Junction, Arizona. Does that look like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE! He NEVER attempted to sell them while they were in his possession. Does that sound like someone who thought or knew them to be fakes? NOPE!
Robert Tumlinson kept the stones in a box under his bed. He never attempted to sell them, even though he was relatively poor, living on a VERY small retirement pension. He found a man who was intersested in them, but did he sell them to him? NOPE! He got the man to pay for them to go to the Superstitions about four times. When his health began to fail, did he sell them? NOPE! He gave them back to his brother.
Did the sick Travis try selling them now? NOPE! He died in possession of the stones.
When Travis died, his widow Alleen sold the stone maps to a long time family friend Clarence Mitchell. Would you sell something you thought or knew to be fake to a long time family friend? I wouldn't!
After purchasing the stones, Mitchell kept their existence mostly a secret for three years. Does that sound like he thought them to be fakes? Not to me.
Best,
Mike
The Holy Grail of the Stone Maps
Roger
El Paso, Tx
Mr. McChesney
You have collected a lot of information. If you havent already, you will soon learn that the easy part is over now and the hard part begins. I think Jim Bark said it best when he called it - Separating the wheat from the chaff.
A lot of the information you have collected has already been discarded by a lot of us as chaff for lack of source material to back it up. I should think that Jim would be a lot of help in the sorting process. He has been marching along that trail for many years.
In my opinion there is only one document that is going to settle the argument over the validity of the stone maps. The Holy Grail of that subject is the FBI report. You find that and you can throw everything else away.
Roger
ME AND MY BUDDY PLAN TO HEAD OUT INTO THE ARIZONA OUTBACK FOR A GOLD MINING EXPEDITION IF YOU CAN GIVE US SOME OF YOUR CLUES AND ANY OTHER INFO THAT WILL HELP WE WILL GREATLY REWARD YOU FOR THIS
WE ARE YOUNG AND STRONG YOU CAN CALL ME AT 603-903-0696 lenny
i live in new hampshire looking forward to hearing from you
Your vote of confidence is flattering. I wish it were that easy. I have dismissed things many times and then had to re-evaluate my decisions at a later date. Although I can sometimes provide background information that supports or cast doubt on something, it is a rare case where I can firmly dismiss something or recommend that someone else does. I get duped just as often as everyone else does. Remember, a person can be duped into believing that good information is bad just as easily as the other way around. Sometimes there is physical evidence that can be used to evaluate the validity of a particular story. Sometimes personal knowledge about the source of the information can be helpful and sometimes we rely on nothing more than a gut feeling which is usually based on what we want to believe. No matter which method we use to evaluate the validity of a certain piece of information or story, most people often rely the heaviest on the latter even in the face of physical evidence to the contrary. It is easier to convince ourselves that there must be something wrong with the physical evidence, than it is to revise our own complex theories that we have come to believe in. In the end, each man has to make his own decision about what to accept as valid information and what to dismiss. My own experience has been that it is very difficult to change a mans mind once he has formed a conclusion. But I will still make an effort now and then in cases where I believe the evidence is strong enough. I would be interested in knowing which pieces of Mikes information you have dismissed and your logic for doing it. Jim
You addressed you question to Mr. X? He was the author of different article about his search for the Lost Dutchman Mine that can be found elsewheree on this website. I have heard by way of second hand information that Mr. X has passed away, so I will attempt to answer your question in his behalf. The Lost Dutchman Mine and the Peralta Stone Maps are deep subjects that as you can see from reading the articles on this website, are often disputed as being nothing but mythical stories. The debates about whether or not they actually exist have gone on for decades with no resolution. Some people have dedicated huge portions of their lives to searching for the answers to the questions you ask, and gone to their graves without ever finding them. If you seek a "City Slickers" type of adventure for your vacation, I recommend that you contact a registered Outfitter and Packer to provide you with horses and guide you safely into and out of our remote Wilderness Area. If your desire is to seek and actually take some Arizona Gold home with you, then I recommend that you contact and join a Treasure Hunting Club located in the area you plan to visit before you come. Treasure Hunting Clubs have experienced members that are always glad to help beginners learn about the types of equipment needed to search for gold and how to use it. In most cases they also have their own mining claims where you can go to put the skills they teach to use in the field, and actually find some gold to take home with you. Making a trip into the Wilderness under the supervision of an experienced guide, and learning how to recognize real gold when you see it in it's natural form, are both prerequisite requirements I would recommend that you meet before deciding to go off into any remote area on your own. The best clue I can give you, that I believe in myself, comes right off the Stone maps "Busca El Coazon" (Search for the Heart). I believe that to be the key to solving the mystery of the stone maps. It is up to you to decide for yourself what it means. If you figure that out, you will go home one happy Treasure Hunter. Good Luck! Jim
Why is this different from you Booklet with he same title?
Randy
Mesa, Az
Jim, I have a copy of one of your booklets that this article is obviously the source of. In comparing the two I have noticed that some things have been changed or omitted in the article form of the booklet. For instance the first thing that I noticed was that your booklet had a forward by Ron Feldman that does not appear in the article. Another thing, although insignificant to the content, is that the format and layout of the article is different than it is in the booklet. Have you concluded that Ron Feldman’s forward was to non-supportive of the statement you were trying to make and omitted if for that reason, and omitted some other information because you have concluded that it was inaccurate? One last question. Why do you believe the stone crosses and latin heart are pieces of the stone map set and how do you tie them together strong enough to go as far out on a limb as you have to make that claim?
Randy
Wheat and Chaff
Roger
El Paso
Hey Jim, In regard to which pieces of Mikes information that I have dismissed and my reasoning behind them. Discretion being the better part of valor. I would have to think about that for a long time before making a public statement. I wouldn’t mind discussing it in private with you if you will provide me with an email address. Be forewarned, you might not like hearing what I have to say. I can’t present my arguments against several of the stories going around about the stone maps without stepping on some toes. Some of those toes may be attached to personal friends of yours. In other words, don’t ask the questions if your not man enough to handle the answers, and I must have your word in advance that things we discuss in private are to remain strictly between you and I.
Roger
Randy
This article is just one chapter from a ledger I have been keeping for almost 20 years. I keep it in manuscript form for ease of including it in a book that I may or may decide to publish someday. I extracted this chapter from the manuscript and revised it as necessary for it to stand alone and be presentable without the other chapters of the manuscript.
I had 100 copies of it printed in booklet form just to introduce people interested in the stone maps to some of the history of the Latin Heart and the Stone Crosses that was not readily available in any other published material, to start them thinking about the possibility that these are genuine articles that support the validity of the stone maps. I included my own theories about how all of the pieces of the maps came to be where they were found just as one possible explanation that fits neatly within the boundaries of the recorded history.
Rons comments were his opinion and as you pointed out, did conflict with the point I was trying to make, but I considered that as an example of the many different opinions of the stone maps, which is a very important part of the whole legend that surrounds them.
I omitted Rons forward from the article because when he wrote it and gave me permission to use it, it was for the booklet, in the form and content of the booklet as it was when that permission was given. I know that I would not appreciate someone that had me make a written comment on something that they wrote, and then revise what I had read and commented on and continue to include my original comments with the revised material. That is the only reason that Rons forward does not appear with this article. Any other omissions or revisions were done by me to update the material from the time it was written or by the staff of Desertusa.com to correct grammatical or typographical errors on my part, or to arrange it into a format compatible with their website software.
I believe the Latin heart and the stone crosses are a part of the original set of stone maps found decades earlier because Beside the fact that the finder of the Latin claimed to have found it in the same area where the stone maps were found. Many of the symbols used on the heart and crosses are the same as ones used on the stone maps and not commonly used on treasure maps or identified in books about treasure signs and symbols. ie: The omega symbol, a triangle, a heart and a circle within a circle. Coincidence? That is always a possibility, but these are all symbols that are for the most part unique to the stone maps. None of these symbols are descriptive enough by themselves to lead anyone to anything or be easily identified in the field, which suggests to me that they are symbolic of something known only to the author of the maps. If we knew what they represented, we might know what to look for in the field. Since we dont, we all might be walking right past them without realizing the importance of some obvious landmark that have repeatedly caught our attention as being unusual or curious, but not identifiable as being associated with the stone maps. This train of thought is consistent with a lot of theories that the Jesuits made these maps and used codes in them that only they would understand. Chuck Kenworthy (A well known and often quoted researcher and treasure hunter) claimed that information he received from his research in the Archives in Spain indicated that the symbols used on the stone maps often had double meanings. You and I might see something resembling a triangle in the mountains and come to the conclusion that we are in the immediate area of something of importance displayed on the stone maps, while someone that knew the true or other meaning of the triangle might concluded that he was on the right trail and to continue on in the same direction for several more miles. If I were going to make a map to something of value to be used by myself at a later date to get back to it, or to help someone else find it. I could see myself including some misleading information on the map (change North to South or Feet toYards) that would make it useless to anyone that did not know the Key to using the map in case it fell into the wrong hands. It is a very common practice that has been in use for as long as people have been drawing maps to something of importance. It is difficult to imagine that there are no secret codes in something as complex as these maps are.
Jim Hatt
Roger, I dont care whose toes you step on as long as you have your facts straight and your logic is sound. I wouldnt even mind you stepping on mine (too much) if you find fault with anything I have said If your facts are straight and your logic is sound. Confidentiality in private communications is assured! If it werent for the security of Confidential communications I wouldnt be able to communicate with anyone. There are a lot of dirty little secrets in my inbox. I suspect that some of them are even true! You can click on my name above and send something directly to my e-mail. Jim Hatt
The Latin Heart
M. Crader
Fountain Hills, Az
Jim, I have been following the story of the stone maps since the article in Life Magazine came out about them in the early 1960's. I knew some of the people you mentioned in your article above, Clarence Mitchell, Charlie Miller, Bill Hidden and Al Reser. I saw the Latin Heart that Bill found many times and accompanied him on two trips to the U of A when he was working with some of the professors down there about the meaning of the Roman Numerals on the back of it. Bill allowed me to make pencil rubbings of both sides of the heart, and I used them to make full scale paper copies of the heart. I compared the drawings of the Latin Heart in your article to the copies that I made. I believe that they are xerox copies of my drawings. How they ever got into a private collection in Texas and then came to you through Tom Kollenborn is beyond me. To the best of my recollection the only copies I ever gave out were to Bob Ward, Al Reser and Rick Peck. I do know that Bill let several other people to make paper copies of the heart that are probably in circulation still today, but the ones I saw myself were hand drawn from just looking at the original stone and not as accurately detailed as the ones I made from my pencil rubbings. FYI, I always believed that the missing word where the blank rectangle is between the two TABULA's, was also the word tabula, and the missing word by the small square beside the word MEUS was also meus, but I wasn't sure enough to put those words in there. The remaining empty square at the end of the word FAUCES might not have been a word at all. I couldn't make out a single complete letter in it but I did feel that there had been a word there at one time. Understand that this stone had a lot of wear on both sides of it and that some of the characters I could see on my pencil rubbings were not visible to the naked eye on the actual stone. The Roman Numeral side was the worst. The drawings you have in your article are copies of the very best I could come up with under the circumstances, and there could be errors in them, as well as some missing words or symbols. I just thought you might like to know some of the missing history behind these drawings and should be aware of the possibility of errors in them. I enjoyed your article very much and found it to be historically accurate and as close to the truth as I could have told it myself. There is so much historically inaccurate information going around about the stone maps that it is refreshing to see someone like yourself making the effort to set the story straight, even though it may result in stepping on some toes in the process. These days people seem to put more importance on being "Politically Correct" or not offending anyone, than they do on historical accuracy. My years for getting out in the mountains and trying to solve the stone maps and the Latin heart are long past, but I still enjoy reading about them and it pleases me to know that your generation will pick up where mine left off. Someday Jim these maps will be solved. If not in your generation, maybe the next, as long as there are people like you and a few others that search for the truth, and are not afraid of stepping on any toes to expose the Myths. M Crader
Mr. Crader
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Thank You for providing some additional history about the paper copy of the Latin Heart. Are you any relation to the Crader's that that packed Al Reser's camp and supplies into the mountains for several years? Do you know where the original Latin Heart stone is today, or have any suggestions about where I might start looking to find out? I am also interested in seeing the original pencil rubbings if you still have them. My only interest in them is to verify that the drawings I have are the exact same size as the original stone. I would like to come and talk to you in person if possible. Please click on my name above and send me an e-mail with instructions on how I can contact you directly. Jim
Original Latin Heart
M. Crader
Fountain Hills, Az
Jim, I would enjoy talking to you in person myself, but due to health issues I am currently residing with my daughter in Calif. There are circumstances that would make that awkward at this time. I apologize for misleading you to believe that I lived in Fountain Hills. It is an instinctive internet precaution that I use when posting to open discussions. I don’t mean to be rude or mysterious, but I think that you will understand that issues involving treasure maps often lead to undesirable experiences. Bill Hidden’s life was so upset over that heart stone that he finally started telling everyone that inquired about it that he had given up on it and crushed it to powder. Since Bill is no longer with us, I see no reason for not telling you that, that never really happened. Out of frustration from the consequences of owning the heart, and an immediate need for transportation, Bill traded it for a truck. As a part of that trade it was agreed that he would continue to tell people the story about him crushing it up to protect the new owner from having the same bad experiences with treasure hunters that Bill did. That individual passed away a couple of years ago, and I am told that he left instructions that upon his death, it would be anonymously donated to the Historical Society Museum in Apache Junction, and that those wishes were honored. Regarding the actual size of the stone heart. I can answer your question in a way that you can verify that the drawing you have is to the correct scale. Place your copy of the drawing on the table in front of you with the round lobes of the heart at the top of the page, and the point of the heart towards you. Measure horizontally across the widest distance on the face of the heart near the top. It should be exactly 7 inches. Then measure vertically from the highest point on both lobes at the top of the heart down to the pointed tip of it. Both of these measurements should also be exactly 7 inches. If necessary you can enlarge or reduce your copy to those dimensions and have it to the exact scale of the original stone. Jim, I have some personal letters from Clarence Mitchell that discuss some things about the stone maps, that were not in his book, and you might be interested reading. It is a family tradition for us to spend the Easter holiday in Apache Junction. Barring any unforeseen circumstances We plan to follow that tradition in 2007. I believe it may be mutually advantageous for us to get together and roll some thoughts around on the table while I am there if it would be convenient for you at that time. M Crader
I had heard the story about the heart being crushed from Al Reser. He also told me at the time that he was suspicious about it. It made no sense, but when several people say they heard Bill say that. What do you believe? Thanks for the dimensions of the heart. There are two Historical Society Museums in Apache Junction. One on Hwy 88 about 1 mile from Goldfield, and one right at Goldfield itself. Do you know which one was supposed to be the one that the original heart was given to? Jim
i am going to say this once and only once ,, even if me and Jim hatt do not work togather I agree with jim 100% about the peralta stones age .. yet let me state that i went to the supers in decmber and hiked over 115 miles . find what we still beleave is the grave site of the dutchmans nephew and a stone house in a cave . and a tunnle site . .. and i go on record as stateing the stones are real and if they were not these sites would not have been found where they are ... . as far as i can tell the stone are 100% correct and do locate these sites ...
i hope some day to work with jim . yet after a rough start it may not happen . but that dose not make me think he is worng . in fact he is closer than most know .......
our next trip is to uncover the site of what we beleave is the nephew and do a search of the stone house area and tunnle area ...
i will repete it was there is no miss under standing of what i said . " the stones do in fact point out real locations ' and i can prove this ....
when i do get my treasure trove permits i will in fact prove the stones are real and not fakes as Jim and i both agree they are real no matter if we can prove it at this time or not ... you must look at a few factors .. for one who ever made them was super smart and had a frist hand wisdom of the mt,s and the history of the mt,s and who lived in the mts, and not just one given area of the mts ....
i will stated this one time /" IMHO the stones are real . IMHO they were made By Kino the leader of the jesuits . IMHO they point out a tunnle and a stone house i not beleave this i know these sites are real and are in the mts where the maps point them out to be .. it is all in the translations of the stones "
i stood on a mt looked at a great stone house .as big as a chruch and beautful to the eye as god's own work of his own hand ... you can beleave the stones or not thats up to you ! but JIM has my respect and you should face the facts he has willing shared with you ! if you do not beleave ,keep it to your self or state your opioion respectfully ...
i stood there and looked at the stone house across from the tunnle !i could reach out and touch it ...
it is real . ......with out jims under standing of the stones i would not have found the tunnle and some day i will say thanks .....
lets look at the logic...
who would take that much time and wisdom to make these stones and than throw them out in the desert ?
thats just out right dum to think anyone would just throw them away in the desert and hope they would be found ... .OK so logic tells us one of too things
..ether they were put there or lost there ! we just stated it would be totally dum and unlogicial to put them there . so what was the other choice ! you got they were most likely lost there .
if so who made them and why is not the question, how and when is !
if they lost who could have lost them and how did they get to where they were at when found ...were other stones found at diffrent times ..?
were they found near a trail ...yes
did the trail leed into or out of the supers yes !
can we note any reason why the stones were made and by who yes ...
IMHO the jesuits not only had a reason to make the stones they in fact had the wisdom and the skill to make them .....
and were in fac seen comeing and leaveing the supers with 240 pack mules .
i ask you how often have you moved and lost things you never knew where they ended up after you got to where you were going ...?
back in those days this way the normal turn of events ...often wagon trains cast out what could not be carried any more or often left or lost things along the way . ask any smart treasure hunter he will agree ...
i found evidence that tills me Jim is right about the stones .. i have been in the mt's maping them and researching the stones and maps data . i should not make this statement for good reason but i will at this time ...."we found a area in the mt's that dose in fact fit every detail of the peralta - ruth map and the peralta stone! "
if you do not want to look like a total fool do not say Jim is out right wrong untill you under stand all the evidence and what it means ,because he is in fact right ...
Nah, you didnt get off on the wrong foot at all. You just drifted too far away from our discussion about the Latin Heart and lost me somewhere in the Holmes Manuscript. Although I believe there is a possible link between the stone maps and the Lost Dutchman Mine. I do not think finding the LDM would solve the stone maps.
According to your previous posts, you appear to have aligned yourself with some people whose knowledge and experience go way beyond mine, especially where the LDM is concerned. Those people can be far more help to you in your search for the LDM than I ever could. I am still struggling with the Roman Numerals myself and they consume the majority of my free time. Maybe one of the other angles you are working on will pan out for you and I can forget about these -%$#@- Roman Numerals. Busca El Coazon my friend.. Jim
Jim email i still welcome your input yet i can not talk about everything we found in our research here on the site ...
i may have a clue about your latin heart you can take it for what it is ...
i will state it openly so others know what is going on ...
remember what i said about the dates the numbers are in the same code ...if you want me to explan email me ...or PM me and we will get off the site completely ...
Sorry but I don't have anything that would assist you in the avenue you are pursuing at this time. I wish you luck though, Jim
lol i was offering to help you . .. i getting some of the best equipment made and will be takeing a closer look at my 5 sites and if i was in the area i thaught you may want to try the equipment at your sites , by your self for a day or two ,why i am there in Az .. i am investing over $15,000 . in speicalized equipment made for this type of research & recovery ...but i guess you think you need no help from me, i could care ether way good luck
Blindblowman
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Az
I'm always interested in seeing how well specialized equipment works. I have owned Proton Magnetometers, Fluxgate Magnetometers and Double Box Metal Detectors myself. I have watched others use Ground Penetrating Radar. My experience has been that they all work very well on nice sandy beaches or flat farmland, but when working in rough terrain, mineralized or rocky areas that contain a lot of Iron and boulders you get a lot of weird anomalies that introduce false hopes. Never know though, you may have some equipment I have no experience with, and it may prove to be valuable where some of these other instruments have failed. Or, your area may be more suitable for the use of electronic equipment than the areas I have tried to use it in. Look me up when you get here and we'll sit down and talk about it. Jim
i agree most equipment is usless in that type of area . to senetive and it is worse than cheap junk with iron ore in the area ...faults readings and echoes...
no i went another path looking for some over all effects that fit this area directly...
full 3d viselized computer display , a $1000 for just this softwear ...so we can change the data to aline with the area it self ..weeding out some of the trash & faults reading , it takes one day of takeing 300 reading and one day to view the resaults for each site and 5 peices of equipment all feed into a state of art laptop computer even the cameras & GPS's tracking where each and every photo are taken and 500 ploted fix's i will be tracking & takeing around 8000 -- 10.2 megapixels photos in 10 days of my 5 sites
and yes we have found away around batteries ...lol the reason we are takeing this path is we can double check to see if we have each photo before going on to the next photo . last time we took over 240 photos and got only about 1/3 of the photos taken . they were being blanked off the cameras chip in side the camera and some of the batteries went dead before we could even use the equipment . and they were new batteries the magnetic feilds in two areas are so strong we find the reasoning to work around this ....
take my word for it JIM i got a few ideas most would not think of ,,..
jim heads up dude
here is something that was posted at another site you may be intrested in '..
Hey Randy, lets try and meet over in Tempe again sometime before the end of the month. I've got some news you will be interested in.
gollum, I don't have any of Mitchell's personal effects. I have copies of all the MOEL Company incorporation papers, and Securities hearings and copies of some of Mitchell's correspondence, but I don't have the Aileen Tumlinson letter to Mitchell. When Mitchell died his attorney that also represented his MOEL company had all his personal papers and material. He was supposed to donate Mitchell's things to the Arizona State Archives at the old State Capital building. That never happened. I don't know for sure, but I believe someone convinced the attorney to donate the material elsewhere, and at a later time.
Someone sent me a PM last night and asked how anyone could be sure the stones Mitchell donated weren't doctored up.
Thats a good question, and no one can be certain they weren't doctored. No one can say with certainty they were. All anyone can do is look at what were the circumstances at that time. All the drama and controversy over the Stone Maps and MOEL occurred after Mitchell's involvement with the stones. The MOEL mis information and hysteria was all created by people who had no clue to what went on with MOEL, or Mitchell, or the Stone Maps. At the time Mitchell donated the Stone Maps there was no reason to doctor the maps because Mitchell had absolutely no interest in them as anything but a historic curiousity.
The whole controversy that involved the Stone Maps and MOEL Company stems from the attempt of two people, B.J.Cochrane and his wife, to try and get the Stone Maps away from Mitchell. They tried to enter a legal claim against Mitchell for the maps but they never had any legal grounds to their claim and it was denied. All the drama and heresay and lies that were spread about MOEL and Mitchell, all the stories you have heard about fraud, bankruptcy, the FBI and Federal courts, were all cooked up and originated from the attempt of some people to try and get something they had no legal claim to.
The Mineral Museum itself is to blame for a good amount of the controversy. In the mid 1970's a reporter named Paul Dean interviewed Lee Hammonds of the Arizona Mineral Museum concerning the Stone Maps. Hammonds was a good administrative assistant but had no contact with Mitchell or the Stone Maps and knew nothing of the history of MOEL, Mitchell or the maps. Hammonds merely repeated the rumors and tall tales he had heard during the controversy of the attempt to get the Stone Maps away from Mitchell. Paul Dean sensationalized the articles and they appeared in print in the Arizona Republic, Fronteir Times, Gold Dust Gazette and several other weekly publications. The general public read these mis representations and the bogus stories of fraud, bankruptcy and FBI involvement, and the stories continued to grow from there. People today still believe the drama and wild stories written about Mitchell and MOEL Company.
Aurum_..
:"
sorry jim
here is the frist part posted by him ...
"I have gotten several e-mails over the past few months from people asking questions about the Stone Maps and about what has been posted here on Treasure Net. In the summer of 1976 I was in the office of Mason Coggins, the curator and chief geologist at the Arizona Mineral Museum. The museum was then located at the Arizona State Fair complex in the Commercial Building along 19th avenue and McDowell road. In the office also that day was Clarence Mitchell. His wife, Grace, had recently passed away and Mitchell was donating some ore specimins, papers and a core drilling to the museum. Six years earlier, in 1970, Mitchell had donated a sizable amount of mining equipment, rock samples, and the Stone Maps to the museum. For this donation, the Mitchell's recieved a State Tax credit. I learned that day that the Stone Maps Mitchell donated in 1970 were a combination of original stone(s), and remakes of the originals. Mitchell had a partner in his Stone Map explorations, Elgin Kleiwald. When Mitchell donated his half of the maps to the museum in 1970, Kleiwald didn't want to let go of the originals in his possession. Mitchell wanted to donate a complete set so what the museum got was his (Mitchell's) originals, and remakes of Kleiwald's maps. Between the years 1961 (when Mitchell purchased the Stone Maps from Aileen Tumlinson) and 1970 when Mitchell donated the maps, he had at least 2 full sets reproduced. I don't know what ever happened to the originals Kleiwald kept but have a good idea who may have them.
Anyone examining the Stone Maps that are in the possession of the Arizona Mineral Museum, should be able to tell the original stones from the reproduced stones. Just because the museum has reproduced stones, does not mean the stones are fake or are frauds. Some are original, some are remakes. That fact has never been an issue. The Mineral Museum has had several copies of the maps reproduced themselves over the years. The last count I knew was five seperate copies. I recently saw the stone Maps on display at a Flagg Foundation event in Mesa and can tell you the Stones that were on display were all reproductions. Mitchell put a very small mark on the stones he donated in 1970 and none of the Flagg Foundation Stones bore this mark. The reproduced stones are made from similar rock as the originals and are very authentic looking from a distance.
The Flagg Foundation does not own the Stone Maps. They are on loan to them for fund raisers and special events. When the Arizona Mineral Museum moved to it's present home on Washington Street near the state Capital, the Stone Maps became tangled in a cloud of confusion. Nyle Nymath, who had his office on the second floor of the new Mineral Museum, told me one time he didn't know which stones were which anymore or who had the originals and who had the copies. Mason Coggins had it all sorted out when he left the Mineral Museum in the late 1990's but what has become of them at this date is anybody's guess. I have seen the stone maps on numerous occasions at Flagg Foundation shows and museum events, but I have not seen the Stones with Mitchell's mark since the 1970's, before the Mineral Museum moved to it's present location. It is my belief that the ladies who recently examined the Stone Maps for the Arizona Hiway's article, never saw the originals Mitchell donated, and even if they did, only half of those stones would have been originals. I don't know what someones conclusion would be when examining a combination of original and reproduction stones.
The only other thing I can add is that Clarence Mitchell firmly believed the maps were authentic and led to some mine(s) and , or, treasure. He never found a treasure but he and Kleiwald found where they believed it may have been hidden. Whether or not it was where the stone maps directed someone, was never verified by Mitchell. The last time I saw Clarence Mitchell was at a Lost Dutchman type event in Apache Junction in the early 1990's . He said he was fighting cancer and thought he had it licked. He was in his 80's at the time. I think it was Clay Worst told me he died in the Junction about a year or so later.
Aurum_
Matthew Roberts
.....hope it clears up some of the confussion....
Bill, I appreciate the thought, but I can't make heads or tails out of all that. Mike McChesney is on top of all that MOEL stuff and has made some good contacts for sorting it all out. I think he will probably have the final word that everyone will accept about whether it is applicable to the validity of the stone maps or not. When things get going like that, it is usually best not to jump into the middle of it. Let it run it's course and see who comes out on top in the end. If you don't agree with the end result... So What? You are still free to believe whatever you want. Are you practicing with any of that expensive equipment you bought yet?
jim, i posted a reply at this site called lost & found ...
you need to read that . my offer to you still stands !...i have found the LDM and can prove it 100% ....there will be 5 of us all togather , me and my brother my step son , another man ,and you ...
No....... Don't be counting me in on any Partnerships there Buddy. I'm just an observer interested in seeing how well your equipment works. I might be able to be of some help as a Technical Consultant or provide some horse flesh for getting you packed in there, but If you find anything with it, it's all YOURS! I might want to borrow the equipment for a day or two after you finish with it though.
I know you believe you have found the Lost Dutchman Mine and solved the Peralta Stone Maps, because of the things you have found out in the mountains. You are not the first and you won't be the last. There are dozens of dozens of old mine workings in the Superstitions. If you go to the BLM and look at the old claim records, you will find hundreds of old mining claims recorded in the Superstition mountains. Every time someone finds one of them, they think they have solved everything. I have personally found three drifts going back in the side of a ridge over 100 feet. One of then has over 300 feet of underground tunnels associated with it. I have also found many shafts going straight down, anywhere from 20 to 70 feet. I cannot even remember how many shafts I have found or been shown that are only 10 - 15 feet deep. Everyone that ever filed a claim out there did some digging in the way of annual assessment work. Of all the workings I have seen, I have NEVER found anything in or around them that verified that they were actually getting any precious metals out of them. People dig for all kinds of reasons. An old map they found or bought. A story with good directions. A monument that someone made for navigational purposes... It goes on and on and on. The point I am trying to make, is that the things you have found can be found all over the Superstitions. Some monuments were 20th century mining claim markers. Most Saguaro marks were made by claim holders marking the trail to their claims. I am not trying to discourage you, but I am trying to get you to slow down and think again about investing the money you got from selling your farm, into a very expensive venture that could very likely end with nothing to show for it. Before you invest in any more expensive electronic equipment, I would suggest that you hire someone that already has some of it, to go out and use it in your area. Hire a mining expert to go along and do an evaluation of the area at the same time. It is true that this could cost you thousands of dollars, but the way you have been talking in some of your e-mails, you are heading in a direction that could cost you TENS of thousands of dollars. Farms are not easy things to come by, and once you sell one, the odds are that you will never have another one. Especially if you squander all the money away on something like a search for a lost mine or buried treasure. You really should spend some time researching the BLM records for old mining claims in your area, to see if what you are looking at is an old registered mining claim, before you invest the profits from the farm you sold in anything else. You probably won't listen to any of this, and go full steam ahead throwing caution to the wind... But I had to try. Jim
and thats comeing from a man that spent 10 years of his life as a dutch hunter ... LOL to take care jim ! i know what i am looking for and i know what i found !
10 years? Where have you been for the last 8 years? I am working on my 19th year now. In 2009 it will be 20 years that I have been chasing the legend in the field. I have another 20 years of reading about it before I ever entered the Superstition mountains. I am not insinuating that I no longer believe it exists. With every passing year my belief has grown stronger. What I AM trying to tell you, is that I don't believe, that you should Sell-The-Farm and gamble the proceeds on your interpretations of what you have read. I dont even believe you should gamble them on your interpretations of what you think you have seen. That is just my opinion, but it is based on almost 40 years of working on separating the wheat from the chaff. From what I have seen in your writing. I think you are gambling on more chaff than wheat. I would like to see how well the equipment you have already purchased works in the field, but I dont have high expectations for you finding anything with it in the area where you plan to use it. I wouldnt recommend that you buy any more if you can rent it, or hire someone that already owns it. Keep your financial investment as small as you can. The odds of your success are astronomically against you.
i would agree if i didnt have 27 1/2 years in the research ..i can aford it !
Blindbowman
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I can see that you have the bit in your teeth, and I know better to stand in front of man at a time like that. You would plow right over the top of me and my advice without ever looking back. Lomg shots do come in now and then. When they do, the payoff is always big. Nothing else I can say but be carefull out there and Good Luck!
i just want to be sailing the open sea someday and come across a nother man sailing along his crose in life , owning his own wind and sailing his home in a freedom few ever under stand ... i would be happy if that man was you !jim ...
some things do come true ...
i am sad to say that my expedition 3 is on hold , my brother (electrical engneer and computer programmer ) had a full blowen heart attack yesterday .....
untill i can find a replacement for him the expedition is at real risk ...
with 25 years hands on working in the thouse fields i dont no anyone even close to filling that job at this point time ..
stay safe stay free
Sorry to hear that Bob. Hope he makes a speedy recovery!
his doctor says it was caused from high blood pressure and that got him on some good blood thiners and the doctor says he should be alright by the fall to go on the expedition .. so things are alright for now ....i am just glad he did not have it in the mts ...so he is do better now than he was ...
Blindbowman PLEASE Write me at germs50@yahoo.com I need to "TALK" to YOU!! Thanks "the germ"
up date
the blindbowman
we beleave we have id part of pictorgraph of the uto-aztecan O'odham (pima and papago ) tribes at my site 4 ....we found a pictorgraph of Xipe totec that wears a sheld on his right knee that 100% matches the sign found over the tunnle at site 4 ...this circle in a circle shows up in 5 out of the 8 known stones ....
the research goes on !
do to trolls i will no longer be posting on the web sites
i wish you all luck
Don't let the trolls bother you Buddy. It's all part of having your name on the wall. The higher your name gets, the more they take pot-shots at it. I may not agree with everything you say, but I stand firmly behind your right to say it! You have a large personal investment of time and resources in the search for whatever it is that lay hidden in the Superstition Mountains. Whether you ever find it or not, your story becomes a permanant part of the record of those who came before you, and those that will follow behind you. They can never take that away from you! Take a deep breath, shake it off, and just keep putting one foot in front of the other. "The real pleasure is in the search". Jim
jim
the blindbowman
we have undisputable evidence that we are in the right area ..
are research has taken us miles from where we started , but it has paid off ....
i dont worry about the na sayers ... it makes me word twice as hard to prove what i saw is the LDM .. my sighting makes my path more clear than most ...
yes , i did say undisputable evidence ...
I know what you mean. Sometimes it appears to be a moving target. No mater how much progress one makes, there is always the thrill of just beginning. In order to find the location of the lost Dutchman mine and solve the mystery of the stone maps it is going to take a level of obsession and tenacity that the world has not known since Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison. You might have enough of both to get the job done.
Is there a conspiracy?
stenowrite
Apache Junction
Is there an effort on the part of business owners, mining museums, writers, etc. in Apache Junction to keep the Found Dutchman's Mine from ever being proved? What would happen if it was found? Could this community get behind exploiting this new-found 8th Greatest Unsolved Mystery in all the world. I think people from all over the world would come to see a protected Lost Dutchman Mine, aka Peralta Mine.
Stenowrite
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Srenowrite, Your comment is short and to the point. I know there are a lot of people that share your concern about a conspiracy, so I will do my best to present you with a broad response that I hope will allow you to answer your own question. As you mentioned, the news about someone finding the Lost Dutchman Mine (LDM) would be a great boost for tourism in Apache Junction, and people would come from all over the world if nothing more than just to view photographs of it and samples of ore from the mine. Jacob Waltz was supposed to have told Julia Thomas (according to her story) that there was an unfinished tunnel on the hillside below the shaft he got the gold out of, and that on his last trip to the mine he hid his mining tools and camp equipment in the tunnel and walled it up. The tools and equipment would be a wonderful museum display themselves. Additionally, the news and a display with the items mentioned above would finally vindicate the community (Apache Junction) that was born from the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine and has endured much criticism because of it. If there is a conspiracy of some kind, I wouldnt expect it to be organized by the business owners, museums and writers of Apache Junction. Although there are forces that appear to have an agenda that includes erasing the history of the LDM and various other lost mine and buried treasure stories related to the Superstition Mountains. I wouldnt go so far as calling it a conspiracy. The United States Government via the U.S. Forest Service has an agenda of preserving the Superstition Wilderness Area for future generations to enjoy. A lot of history has been erased in the mountains by the U.S.F.S through their efforts to restore the area to its natural condition and preserve it in accordance with that agenda. This may appear to be a conspiracy to some, but in all fairness to the U.S.F.S. their agenda is for the good of the many and only at the expense of a few. As far as anyone being able to PROVE that the LDM had been found is concerned The difficulties with proving that the LDM or an old Peralta Mine has been found are many. Not because we have no clues or landmarks we could use to verify the identity of an old mine, but to the contrary, we have too many! (and all too often they contradict each other) I have in my Dutchman library over 100 books and another 200+ magazines, pamphlets, articles, manuscripts and journals, most of which introduce some unique clue or landmark to the LDM or a lost Peralta mine. These clues come from a wide variety of sources beginning with the most well documented people who personally knew Jacob Waltz. Ie: Julia Thomas, Rhiney Petrasch and Dick Holmes. Each of them claimed that their information came directly from the lips of Waltz. Waltz knew other individuals that lived in the city of phoenix during the last years of his life, and it is reasonable to assume that he may have discussed his mine and mentioned a few details about it, or the area surrounding it to them also. For instance, Tom Kollenborn has written about a man named Bill Cage who was a local Blacksmith in Phoenix during right time period, who claimed to have known Waltz and acquired information about the LDM description and location directly from him. Toms father knew Mr. Cage and gleaned bits and pieces of information from him over the years (little or none of which corresponded with information from other sources). Because of the possibility that Waltz did confide in other unknown individuals, we cannot dismiss the validity of any clue just because it did not originate from Thomas, Petrasch or Holmes or coincide with their clues. Some legendary clues to the location of a rich mine located in the Superstition Mountains originate with Native American legends and lore, or Mexicans that have ventured North from Old Mexico in search of rich mines that had been worked by their ancestors. During the last 100+ years, all of these directions, maps, clues and landmarks have been gleaned from all the lore and included in the multitude of published material which has become a part of the Legend of Superstition Mountain and the LDM. I dont mean to give the impression that I believe that the majority of the directions, maps, clues and landmarks are bogus and lead to nothing. My familiarity with the legends and experience in the mountains has actually led me to the conclusion that a large number of them are in fact valid and do apply to old Mexican or Spanish mining locations in the Superstitions, even though they probably do not apply to the particular location that was found and worked by Jacob Waltz and become known as the Lost Dutchman Mine. In the last 18 years, I have spent between 70 and 100 days per year, every year, traveling the trails and climbing the ridges where there are no trails in the Superstitions. During this time, I have found no less that 6 places where I can pull together a respectable number of clues or landmarks in the immediate area of an old mine, and make a good case for it being the LDM or an old Peralta mine. Some of these locations appear to have been untouched in the last 100-200 years and some show signs of having been worked or reworked in the early to mid 20th century. None of them show any indication of an 18 quartz vein, as described by Homes who claimed that Waltz described the source of his gold as being an 18 inch vein or quartz. Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch never mentioned Waltz talking about an 18 quartz vein, so is that, or is it not a valid clue? The largest surviving sample of Dutchman ore (The famous Matchbox) is little more than 1 wide, so the vein could have been as narrow as that. Of the 8 places I have found, good cases can also be made for the possibility of them being the location of the Two Soldiers mine, the Dr. Thorne Mine, Joe Deerings Mine, Jenkins Lost Load or any one of a dozen other lost mines. I think most people can see what I am leading up to with this. If we eliminate all the maps, landmarks and clues except the ones that came directly from Thomas, Petrasch, Holmes and Cage, we still have nothing more than second hand clues to work with in our attempt to verify that the LDM has been found. We DO NOT and NEVER WILL know exactly what Jacob Waltz said anyone. There are NO clues that can be verified as coming directly from the his lips. There are only clues which come from second parties who claimed that they came from Waltz. Did those parties tell the truth? The Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth? Probably not! It is my guess that Thomas, Petrasch, Holmes and Cage all held something back, and distorted some of the information that they did let out, in order to keep anyone from beating them to the mine. In view of all the above, who is alive today that would be qualified to identify and validate that the mine has been found? If it could be identified and validated by the existence of landmarks in the immediate area, I would have located it 6 times already. In 6 different places that are miles apart! As any serious student of the legends of Superstition Mountain will tell you. If the LDM is ever found and validated, it will be through the nature and composition of the ore. All ore deposits contain unique Fingerprints consisting of various amounts of Trace Elements & Minerals. The Fingerprint of the LDM is known and has been documented. When/if the ore sample is ever brought out of the mountains that has the correct Fingerprint, the find will be validated. We may read about it in the newspapers and we may not. For all I know, it could have already happened, but will never be in the news. Stenowrite, One thing I am sure of If it is ever found and the news is made public. The business owners, mining museums, writers, etc will not be conspiring to cover up the news! They will be shouting about it louder than anyone else. Jim Hatt
well stated
the blindbowman
but i do go on record as requesting treasure trove permits ....with the usfs .... because yes the LDM has been found and with in one year i will in fact prove it has been found and it is in fact the LDM .... on expedition 3 i will photograph the mine in quality pictures to scale as requested by scoot woods of the USFS ....
we go on record as stated , with undisputable evidence we have located the LDM ...
i agree with much of what jim has stated . yet my own eye sighting has never been proven wrong to date and even if we have change the location within a mile from where we started . we can prove what we found is the LDM and the tunnle ...
you want my honest take on all this ...
after 28years i will be more than glad to see this legend and the spirits of those that lost their lifes rest in peace ...
i dont want to see the mine worked by a big company ...
i beleive the tunnle was a secerd holly place of the indain before it was a tunnle or they may in fact intersect ...
i would still like to have jim part of expedition 3 ...
as well as a few others
i am not going to stated it well be easy ... i have reason to beleive the tunnle is boobee traped ...let me restated that ..i am possitive it is ...
what they do with it is a matter for the corts to deside ...
but i am part indain and any historic objects will be protected ...
to me gold is just a rock like any other rock ,yet the faith of those that came before us light the path ...
i will make a bold statement
yes the LDM is real . and yes it has been found ...
the evidence is being collected to prove it and gain the legal permits to make the find legal and to prove the clam is the LDM ..
i will not make a legal clam with out haveing the fingerprint ore sample to prove it is in fact the LDM ...
i am sorry that you have to wait for the evidence to catch up with my statement but i am protecting the find for good reason ....
and yes i can show how the clues fit the locations ....
i wonder if the most valuable part of this legend has already been lost .. the grave of the lost dutchman him self . i may never get the chance to thank him ....
the blindbowman
.lets cut threw all the red tape ..as you stated everything has a finger print . so could a quartz sample be tested for a match to the LDM sample ? ....we know the gold was tested . how about the quartz ....i have a (sample with trace of black sand on the back of the sample , it came from the quartz vein that runs in line with the tunnle site . lets find out if i have found the LDM ...if i am right the vein runs some 400 yards and if so it is part of the same vein the dutchmans ore came from and that should show up in the tested sample,i found the LDM in 1979...its time i stop FN around and come right out and prove it !
Bowman
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
It is always encouraging to find quartz in the mountains, but if it does not have visible gold in it, it isn't worth the cost of a Scanning Electron Microscope test on it. I wouldn't even bother to carry it out. You need to read up on the difference between Endothermic & Mesothermic Quartz. Both types of can carry gold but Dutchman ore is in mesothermic quartz. See "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz" by T.E. Glover pg. 281.
that would be a total waste of my time lol ...
show me another vein of quartz that runs verical in line with the pit and tunnle and i will beleive you lol ! my family has been miners for over 14o years and i have only heard of two vertical veins in my life time ....
Bowman
Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Someone once told me that you can't teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
i know i seen a lot of quartz out there but only one vein that runs along the ground when i droped a quartz crystall in the vein i could not hear it hit bottom ! htis vein looks like a geo coverd in crystall for hunders of ft down we did some math and beleive the reason i did not hear the crystall hit is because the vein is between 900 to a 1000 ft deep ...
there was only one vein out of a few hunderd that i saw that is a vertical vein ..all was milky quartz not this pure type of quartz ...
For those who want to know, Mr. X is Cotheal Coogan MY UNCLE.
so he's your X....lol
BLOWMAN BITES THE DUTS
Roger
Hello Jim, been quiet lately, it can't be the mtns keeping you busy this time of year. Could it? I was just catching up on the news on the web and saw that blindBLOWman admitted to making up his whole story as a joke on another website. Do you still think his name is on the wall for all time? LOL
The only thing triple digit temperatures mean to me is, less chance of running into someone else on trail! Re: BBMs name on the wall: Sure! Why not? Once a name is on the wall, it is there to stay. Its final position on the wall can take years or decades to determine. Even then, new evidence could bump it up or down a notch, but it never comes off the wall. People like Gregory Davis make sure of that! If you have ever been to his home, and seen his library, you already know that he is the Keeper of the Wall, which is actually row after row of four drawer filing cabinets, filled with names on the Wall.
Roger ,and you beleive that ..?
Date of the stone maps
Maptech
Southern California
It might be a little easier putting a date on the map by utilizing information that was available during the time the map was made and comparing it to information that was available in 1949 when they were discovered, and information available today. For example, all maps need a relativly fixed point to navigate by. In early nagation, this point was either the pole star, or magnetic north. Anyone who navigates by maps knows that both the pole star is not fixed nor magnetic north. In 2012 A.D. we will be changing pole stars to Draco. This due to the fact that polaris will move far enough from the pole position as Draco moves in. Hence the long count calendar renews. Magnetic north moves erraticly. Isogonic lines on aviation charts must be redrawn or renumbered every 10 years due to the fact that magnetic north constantly changes. Any map that is intended to be accuratly navigated by, must contain a isogonic drift to make compass corrections by. On the priest map, you will note the code " 8-N-P " This is the isogonic drift devience. ie. from the point of navigating this map, North Polaris is 8 degrees from magnetic north. Hence 8-N-P. is 8 Norte Polaris. Now, if you use the geomagnetic calculator software developed in 1979 and enter in the lat and long of Weavers Needle and the magnetic varience of 8 degrees, it will churn out the date of March to May of 1767. This is the only time magnetic north was 8 degrees off from the pole star. Today it is around 11.5 degrees off and it has been as much as 14 degrees since 1767. The only time this information was at hand was when the map was made and after 1979. In 1949 when the magnetic variance was 13+ degrees, and when the maps surfaced, nobody knew what the magnetic varience was in 1767. The Jesuits were expelled in 1767 from New Spain. Nobody in 1949 would be able to know what to put as a magnetic drift if they were making a fake map. A computor program had do take the isogonic lines from every map in existance and compute all the variences and fill in all the blanks. There are no maps in existance of the Arizona region with isogonic lines anywhere near that time period. It would take a master map making genious to fake the peralta stones, or a Jesuit in 1767 to produce them. 1847 is not a date. 1751 on the crosses are. In 1751 Madame de Pompadour a married woman was having an affair with the King of Spain, hence the Presiding Jesuit took away the Kings right to communion. Madame de Pompadour was inferriated and insisted the King exercise his athority. This would be the begining on the end for the Jesuits. The Jesuits took a major blow from the King in 1751, he finished them off in 1767 with the Expulsion order after the cloak and hat riots. The Jesuits list 1751 as well as the depiction of the priest in the cloak and hat on their maps as a final slap in the face if the coded maps were to fall in the Kings hands. ie, we hid the gold for you stripping us of our power over these 2 incidents. There are several coded messages in these maps that 2 people would understand. 1 was an Jesuit priest of the time entrusted with this knowledge. He understanding the entire code of the map, and the other would be the Royal Court in Spain, who would if having posession of the map would only know why, not where. The keys to this map is in understanding the 1847 / 10 along with the triangle. The deep bored holes in the trail map. the 3E on the Horse Map. the 6M the purposly play of words EL COAZON the dagger hilt and 18=7 It is not necessary to have both maps to solve the location, it just recomfirms the location by overlaying. This map leads to a place very specific. Most people who try to solve the maps come up with a theory then make the clues lead to that end. Follow the proper directons without any theory, and if you understand the codes, it leads to maps destination.
I don't pretend to understand even half of what you have said, but I sure like it all! What little I do understand fits very well with what I have always believed. Just suppose. . . I could take you to the exact spot the 8-N-P applies to, and a few other places in the same area that are indicated on the stone maps and Latin heart?
We need to talk. Please send me an e-mail.
the blindbowman
maptect as a Quarter Master i under stand everything you said , and why you said it . your the smartest i seen on the sight so far as well as navagation goes other than my self ... its nice to see someone with a reality to under standing the facts of the map and the translations . you may have read some of my post here dont beleive everything you read i was missleading details ...
your only wrong about one thing ... 8-N-P
it stands for infinity north pinical , it says . " vicinity north pinical" there were no magnetic varaitions to the maps ... there were draw with out varaition corrections .. when the maps were made there was a 14.5 correction and it was not done to the maps .. but who made the maps knew it ...thus i agree a master map maker ...
i have been the healsman in or out of port in 308 port of calls ... i think that speaks for it self ...
the mayan long count was the standerd used ... few knew that other than us ...
your right it is that simple to a master map maker ...
Jim,
I am interested if you know, the picture taken by Mr.X's wife that is shown in the link "Lost Dutchman Mine Found?", the small peak with the face that he points out, where is this?
Hello Kim,
Yes, I have been to the spot the picture was taken from with Mr.X, but I did vow not to reveal it's location. I have been told that Mr. X has passed away. Since I have not heard from him in over a year and he no longer responds to e-mails, that may be true. One might think that his passing would be a release from that vow, but #1 I have not been able to verify that it is true. #2 Mr X had a nephew and a couple of friends that were working on that project with him. It is possible that they are still counting on me honor the vow I made to Mr. X. I see you left an e-mail address with your post (your name appears as a clickable link). Maybe someone connected with Mr. X still looks in on this site and will contact you.
New Discoveries
GEO*TRAILBLAZER 1
SW Missouri
I like playing with the New Google Earth and was raised in and around the SW.
I have overlayed the map of the stones and found some very striking information.
I am like everyone else in here and just wanted to post that you might investigate this option.
It may lead you to something you already know.
I am a novice at this one but have been to the Superstition Mountains.
If you notice you can also use it to make GPS maps for checking and calibrating points on the map.
I wish I had one good POB to refer to so that I could calibrate the image overlay better.
Is anyone else doing this type of work on it?
Or am I going to have to make a journey....expedition again.
Trailblazer, I have been using Google Earth for about 6 months. I use it in conjunction with Topo, USA and a Magellan Handheld GPS. I have never done overlays. I use GPS points for point of reference between the two computer programs. I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, but I will assist if I can. Jim
Image Overlay
GEO*TRAILBLAZER 1
SW Missouri
Jim,
If you notice you have the option of image overlays in GE.
You can add things like your TOPO's and many other things.
I wish to not go into great details as to how to do it here.
But images,topo's,grids and many other things can be calibrated to fit the Degrees listed on your topo corners,etc...
I am a disabled calibration Tech.
If you get Google Earth Plus you can use your GPS with it.
I have done some more research and found a Pedro Peralta and his original Homestead Entry.
It places his homestead near the heart of the map.
If that original place still exists it might just be a key to the map.
Does anyone know of it or have coordinates for it?
The BLM records are of a later date but the Homestead and mineral claims by the Peralta's in the vicinity of the map confirm my find and placement.
If two or more(known-verified) points of the Stone maps could be found,heck even 1, I could start a better calibration of the Map.
The initial find also appears to be just above the Heart(logical and topological for the mules journey out of the mountain) and if a mule had them packed or they were stashed by the owner both theories could then fit.
I am not concerned with knowing if they are authentic what I found makes it so in my mind.
You will not believe how closely,(if correct)the map matches the topography already.
I am eager to share but then there is that part of me that says hold back..don't tell all you have found.
You may have stumbled across something people have been seeking for years.
More to come.
I do not know if you want to know more about how I know all this GPS and mapping but I have been www.Geocaching.com for a long time.
This includes many facets like www.Waymarking.com ,benchmark recovery and mapping.
I just happen to like it and have done it for a long time.
I was actually looking for something else when I ran across your post and the Old Legend LDM hit me again.
I am working on another project here Called Cave of Gold.
The Missouri Civil War Gold that is here in the Ozarks somewhere nearby.
the blindbowman
i agree topo USA 6.0 and the new germin 2008 topo with hand receiver download works good ...
and i was one of the frist to even use Navstat in the Navy .. it was the frist navagational statlite ...navstat 1
as the flag ship we often got to test new things before any other ship even herd they were real ...
yes we use full Gps atuo and hand held...
I don't know who you are since you didn't put a name on the post(s), but thanks for the heads-up. Some of it is new information to me but some of it I have heard before. I got a phone call one evening a month ago about something the caller had read on the Internet concerning a mark that Mitchell had put on the stones before donating them. He wanted to know if I had ever heard about this mark before. I hadn't, but one thing we discussed during the conversation, was that it must have been only a surface mark like you would make with a magic marker if it did not show up on the reproductions. If it had been something cut into the stone, it would have had texture that would have been picked up by the latex mold reproduction process, that was done in the mid to late 80s by Richard Robinson. I have done a lot of work with latex molds in that last couple of years and I can tell you, the process will pick up and reproduce the date off of a dime. I can't imagine Mitchell's mark being any smaller than that. But, who knows? The fact that what you posted appears to have been written by Matthew Roberts means it would require some hefty evidence to dispute it, so I wont even try. However, with no disrespect to Matthew, I am still not ready to close this chapter. I would have to see the other two missing ORIGINAL STONES to be totally convinced that they exist elsewhere, and are not in the M&M Museum. There was something about the stones that led the FBI to conclude that they were at least 100 years old at the time they inspected them. I cant imagine them inspecting 4 stones and not noticing that two of them were much newer creations than the other two? Having said that, I also cant imagine what process they used to come to that conclusion either, unless there was still some biological growth in the small crevices at the time of their inspection? With people like Matthew Roberts and Mike McChesney on the paper trail, I am confident that supporting evidence (of the physical type) will eventually turn up. Either Mike will find the missing FBI report, or Matthew will find the alleged two missing original stones. It is a shame that organizations like the Flagg Foundation and the M&M Museum did not keep better records concerning donated items. Personally, I am holding with the belief that the 4 stones in the M&M Museum are all originals, and either Matthew misunderstood something, or he was spoofed into believing something that was not true. If he locates the missing two originals, I will stand corrected and eat my words that I have intentionally kept soft and small enough to chew and swallow.
none of the stones matter i found what they go to ...lol
re: Stone Maps Since 1949 - from above
Originally posted by: Mike McChesney
Laguna Niguel, Ca.
reposted by Jim Hatt so everyone would not have to go way back to the original post to figure out what I was responding to......
"Hey Folks, My name is Mike McChesney, and I got involved in this mess on another forum, when I saw someone post information that I knew to be incorrect. We went back and forth on a number of particulars, and he began asking questions that I had to actually research to find the answers to. Well, once I started researching the answers, I found a LOT of contradictory stories and "facts". I decided to take a part of the Stone maps' Story that should be easy enough to prove or disprove. The history of the Stone Maps from 1949 until present. If I could prove or disprove the parts of that history, I would have better grounds to either believe or disbelieve in the possibility of them being authentic Treasure Maps. I took all the stories I knew of, and picked out most of the common elements: Tumlinson finding the stones, Tumlinson and his brother using the stones, acquisition of the stones by Clarence O. Mitchell (CEO of MOEL Inc), verification of the stones by Professor Stephen Dana of Redlands University, SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission) investigation and trial of MOEL, possession and testing of the stones by the FBI, and how the stones came to be at the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum. I began calling, emailing, and snail mailing various legal and historical archives, individuals, schools, and papers. Here is what I know for certain as of now: Travis Tumlinson came into possession of the Stone Maps in 1949. How he got them is another story. It is possible that he found them, but that seems to me to be less likely than him getting them from his Treasure Hunting Father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson (no joke). If he did get them from his father, who got them from a person that stole them from under the floor at the Arizpe Mission (around the turn of the century), that would give them MUCH more credibility towards being authentic treasure maps to me."
Stone maps came from a Mission in Arizpe Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Mike, I have been getting e-mail questions about something you wrote a while back and I never responded to. Hope you dont mind me bringing the applicable portion forward so I could respond to it now. re: It is possible that he found them, but that seems to me to be less likely than him getting them from his Treasure Hunting Father "Peg Leg" Tumlinson (no joke). If he did get them from his father, who got them from a person that stole them from under the floor at the Arizpe Mission (around the turn of the century), that would give them MUCH more credibility towards being authentic treasure maps to me. I would like nothing more than to be able to accept that story, mostly because as you said that would give them MUCH more credibility towards them being authentic. I may have mentioned this to you before, maybe not. Everything runs together in my memory after so many years and conversations. The first hurdle I have in accepting the story about the maps being stolen from under a bed in an Arizpe Mission, is that there is no known credible source for it. I know it appears on several websites, but the post is always made by an anonymous person who got the information from other unnamed persons. How do you begin to backtrack and verify info like that? The second hurdle I cant seem to get over in order to accept that information, is the story Al Reser told about the Latin Heart being found many years later by Bill Hidden in the same general area where Tumlinson said he had found the stone maps. I know, before you bring it up. A lot of people claim that they never heard the story of Charlie Miller, Bill Hidden and the Latin Heart before they read it in my article above. But, Bill Hidden and Charlie Miller told the story about the Latin Heart and where it was found to many other people besides Al Reser. Richard Peck for one, and a few other people that are still walking among us, and would not appreciate me mentioning their names here. That second hurdle is a hard one to get over. In order to accept the story about the stones coming out of Arizpe. One has to get comfortable with the idea that Tumlinson, Mitchell, Miller, Hidden, & Reser were all liars or taken in by liars. Of those 5 men, the only one I knew personally, was Al Reser, and I can tell you this. Al was not a a liar nor a man that was easily taken in by anyone! Someday we may see a string of verifiable and credible names like those above connected with the Arizpe Mission story and it might gain some creditability, but until then, it is just another story. If the Latin Heart was found where Al Reser believed it was (same general area where Tumlinson said he had found the stone maps) Then It strongly supports the story Tumlinson told about where he found them, and to me, the Arizpe Mission story goes right down the drain. I WOULD like to believe the Arizpe story, and I WOULD like to believe that there are two original stone map pieces in private hands somewhere. That would explain why the two trail maps are on one color of stone, and the Priest & Horse maps are on another color of stone. (Something that has always bothered me) But, if I based all of my conclusions on what I LIKED to believe, without regard for logic and recorded history. I would be just like all the other feathers in the wind, of which (in my opinion) there are far too many already. For what its worth Mike. THE STONES ARE AUTHENTIC! You dont have to believe it. All I ask is that you remember where you heard it. I have in the past, and continue to forfeit about $50,00 - $70,000/year of personal income, that I could be making in the Nuclear Industry, just so I can remain in Apache Junction. That is how much I believe in the authenticity of the stone maps. I may never find what they lead to. But, it has been an E-Ticket ride all the way, that I could not have bought for $70,000 a year! Take Care Mike, and Busca El Coazon! Jim
blindowman
Ben
N.C.
Jim what has happened to blindowman? Reading these post and seeing you on history channel has sparked my intrest. please give the latest THANKS
Hello Ben. Never know about the "Blindbowman". Sometimes I think there about six of them, all on different frequencies. Latest update is. Damn it's been HOT! Either I am getting older or there is something to this Global Warming stuff! (I think I am getting older) The local news always says that the record high temperature for this date was set 40 or 50 years ago. Glad I didn't live here then. What does that say about the global warming theory? Jim
the blindbowman
i have gone awhere , i hope to visit jim on expedition 3 . it is may IMHO the treasure in the tunnel is the "treasure of crist" put there around the years of 1307 thepriest stone is showing a templar priest being staped by his own sword that looks like a cross of the chruch that has betrayed the templar ....
this may sound way of corse but the templar had a acount that puts them in the americas before 1442 in fact the legend is some what defind by the trifolium parryi .. member of the clover family .. yet IMHO the person that defind the flower was wrong about its type . is is in fact the trifolium repens , or white clover . or also known as the dutch white clover ,or dutch clover ... it has been recorded to have been found in the supers , it grows at a elevation of 3500 - 7000 ft lemiting its locations with in the mt range .... as a beekeeper i know alot about flowers and the templars vanished in 1307 and most likely they would have taken beeshives and seeds of this kind .. the white clover is known to grow almost any where and draws bees to its flowers ... the clove it self can be made into a sweet flour to make the refind sable biscat... most likely they would have traded with the indains at the times ...
it is only in theory at this piont . but i do have facts and evidence that make me beleive i am close ...
the jim haydock story list a treasure of the tayopa legend that very well could defind the treasure of christ .in part . the setting of the last supper table ...
beisdes the templar are the only ones that used the mathamatical signs on the peralts stones ...
i well go on to explan that in the mt range in around 1275 a tribe of massacreing indains lived at the site and had killed a tribe in near by new mexico much in the same way as they did the templars and the spainish at the massacre site in the dutchman legend .. iIMHO this tribe had massacred a few times and even more we may not know of as of yet ...
the statue i saw was a priest with a sword in hand with the handle upward . at frist look he looks to have a crossin his hands ,,, this is what i beleive the man in 1959 saw ..
i would welcome jim on expedition 3 ..i will prove my research has not been lost to dreams of treasure ... IMHO this is why few could defind the real treasure . it was far older then we knew . the templar most likely broke peices of tablets that came from the temple mount .....
and were massacred by the tribe .yet the tribe was not the match for templar knights .. IMHO the massacre all but wiped out both the tribe and the templars at the same time .. only leaveing enough of the tribe to hold the location hiden away from the out side world ...
this tribe of the anceint ones ,,,,can not be forgoten ,,,
if i am right ... and the treasure of the temple mount is in the tunnel ... it is worth well over a 100 billion dallars.... and well change the face of history ...
IMHO i was not wrong in 1979 and i am not wrong now !
note : the horse without the two rides ..... the priest with a cross on his robe , standing on the building blocks of the freemason ...look where the priest left hand is . on the blade near his body
then look at his right hand his thumb is on the two sided blade the templars were known for ...
IMHO have found the treasure , i just did not know it was the treasure of christ ...the LDM is real and yes i well prove what i am saying on expedition 3 ...
stop wondering .....
the blindbowman
you want proff now .. test the stone tablets the peralta stones are made from the same stone as the solmen stone tablet found in at the temple mont ....
easy to prove ...
the blindbowman
it is my theory the templar when confronted with the massacre made the stone maps direction and ruth map ...
the stones were the last made . at the time of the massacre , they broke peices that were not written on off the tablets from the treasure of the temple mount treasure tablets .. look close and you can note the priest stone and the horse stone are broken free from larger stone tablets ....
we never see what is right before our eyes untill it is explan to us what we are seeing ..
is that what you were looking for jim .....i didnt think so ...
when working on the topics above i came across a event that took me and my shamachi arts to a place and time i have not gone yet ... talking in a nahua laguage as a small boy named tazza , even at times singing songs of the events of his live and tribe .. we have been researching the words and find the word are 6000 years old .
yet, the shaman tazza boy takes place in around early 1300's and is part of the coo a caw tribes ...
one thing was clear about these events . they told us the cave in the dutchman legend is part of a nother legend .. the seven caves of chicomoztoc ...
we are research the topic to see if we can find evidence and we beleive we are finding evidence that agrees with these findings ...
to make the statement they are windows is foolish with out showing a turn of events that could have proven they are windows .. this is just my piont ..if i am right and the templar did in fact go to the seven caves , it dosent realy matter if they were massacred or sacrificed after .. the fact remains they would have been there about the same time as these codic were made ...and the codic reflect this out right ..
it is not to say this is the only posable way the drawings could have happend but it dose show the relationship i have been defind and there is evidence here to prove what i have been saying could in fact be true ...
if i am right , the templars founded north America around 1302- 1305 and i beleive what is in the cave system can prove this ...but we must also remember they came into a land of tribes that were already here ...
and these were not savages by any means . in fact if i am right they were the desendents of aztlan tis .....
with any goo theories one must relate the time line with the turn of events , in this case there is enough evidence to show this is posable ....
what makes the seven caves diffrent ,
fresh water , its histroy , the secerd location it self ,. if i am right people were sacrificed and their remains and and belongings were put there in the seven cave system .. as offerings to the thunderd gods ...
note the volcanic structure of the seven caves codic ..would match the discription given to Kino as well as the fact it was the home of the Ancient ones as well as the thunderd gods ...
i am not saying this could be a window .. i am saying here is a reason or evidence why it is a window .....?and how these tribes learn what a window was and when they learn this ...
let egt real . to have a theory is one thing to show how this theory fits events of the time and place is as hard as showing who made the turn of events and when they made them posable ...
can i show this evidence i beleive i can ..and just did ,, can i add more evidence or find more evidence of these events . if i am right the path well have vanished but it is not gone . there will be more evidence to be uncoverd ....
this would prove not only were the templars here but were in fact recorded by the tribes in question at the time around `1302-1305
and if i am right and the cave is the seven caves of chicomoztoc .. we may be able to prove this with real evidence from the seven caves system ...
TRAIL'S TO THE HEART
Eugene Martin
PHX. AZ.
EL COAZON DE SANTA FE or THE HEART OF THE HOLY FAITH, FOR THEY SAY THAT OUR LEGENDS,ARE SUPERSTITION'S OF THE PAST,BUT I SAY THEY ARE BLIND,FOR THEY DO NOT SEE THE PAST,I WISH THEY COULD SEE,WHAT WE HAVE SEEN,IN THE HEART OF THE HOLY FAITH,FOR I HAVE A STORY TO TELL YOU,THAT ISN'T OF TODAY,IT'S A STORY OF LOST SOUL'S,AND GOLD MINE'S,NOT TO FAR AWAY,IT'S A STORY OF OF THE APACHE AND THE YAVAPAI,AND THEIR LOVE OF THE LAND,IT'S A STORY OF THE PERALTA'S GREED,DISRESPECT AND ABUSE,OF THE PEOPLE'S AND THE LAND,FOR WITH UP TO SEVERAL HUNDERD SOULS,THEY ALL DID GO NORTH,TO THOSE TREASURES TOLD,BUT ONLY ONE PERALTA WALKED AWAY,THAT DAY SO LONG AGO,FOR THE PERALTA'S HAD THE ORACLE STONES,THAT THE JESUITS USE TO OWN,YOU SEE,AND THOSE HOLY ORACLE STONES,DID LEAD THEM ALL THERE WAY,TO THE HEART OF THE HOLY FAITH,FIRST TO THE HORSE OF THE HOLY FAITH,THEN TO THE HEART OF THE SAME,THE HOLY ORACLE STONES, THEY DO SAY,THIS TRAIL IS DANGEROUS,BE WARY ALL YOUR WAY,TO THE CANNONS AND SILVER BELL'S OF TAYOPA,THE JESUITS HID AWAY,UNDER SEVERAL HUNDERD TONS OF ROCK AND STONE,AND A LOT OF PAPAGO,PIMA AND MARACOPA TO,SO THE LEGENDS,THEY DO SAY,BUT THE MINES OF TAYOPA,CAN STILL BE SEEN,UNTO THIS VERY DAY,FOR I HAVE LOOKED FROM THE EYE,AND SEEN THE NEEDLE,THIS WAY,I'VE CRAWLED THRU THAT HOLE IN THE WALL,WHERE WISE OLD GRANDPA JACOB USED TO STAY,AND I THINK YOU SHOULD KNOW,MANY A POOR SOUL HAS DIED THERE,MANY IN A VERY,VERY BAD WAY,FOR THE GREED OF THERE HEARTS,WAS BROKEN THERE,IN THE HEART OF THE HOLY FAITH,BUT WE'LL KEEP RIGHT ON SEARCHING,FOR THAT TREASURE,YOU SEE,ISN'T THE GOLD AND SILVER FOUND THERE,IT'S THE HEART OF THE HOLY FAITH,AND IF EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU,WILL SEARCH YOUR HEARTS,THRU AND TRUE,WHY EACH AND EVERY ONE,WILL FIND YOUR GOLDEN HEART THERE,I HAVE FAITH,JESUS TOO
BUSCA EL COAZON DE SANTA FE COPYRIGHT 2007 EUGENE MARTIN
the cave is dark .yet is see like the hawk i am . the ground is rough and i shapeshift to my wolfs blood ... i see the bones of those you speak old and dry no mairo sweet... your time is near and if it must be .. here i am it is me.....
i once long ago played there as a young boy .tazza had many toys of gold back when ...
i want to play again ...
i remember what it was like to hold their beating hearts in my hand . any throw them away to see where they land .... this is my home my heart and my faith ...
thunder god s smile as their hearts race ,i am now i have no race ....
Jim . i hope your ready to go sailing . i have finished translateing the stones .. .you were right they do in fact piont out the dutchman , but it is not the main focus of the stones . the secerd cave and ruins are ...
i found a faultline that runs across the area , on this faultline is a pure quartz vein , the cave , the dutchman dike , and the Wagoner dike ...
your name is on my list . if you can make the expedition great if you can not . your share will stand .....
you were honest to me . that is a rare thing ..... i will keep my word . if i can prove these sites are there and get legal clam ... your name is on the list of members of this expediton even if you do not go the expedition it self ...
i positive i have found the LDM ... if i had gone a 1 1/2 to the north i would have been there. the wagoner dike is 600 ft from the dutchman dike ...on the same faultline
wish me luck ,may god him self light my path ....
jim the code is templar , i know what the two dates mean .... they are not dates at all .. have the templar code key ... there are dozens of locations ... and i have the key to unlock them ...how big of a ship did you want ....LOL
jim could you give us a clear picture of the cross with the 1751 date on it and what is say on that cross ...
Photo of the cross Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Who ever it is that wants a better photo of the crosses you will have to leave an email address when you make a post. I cannot upload graphic files to the comments section.
STONES DECODED
HI ALL
Hebrew esoteric meanings of numbers
Notice its mathematical structure of three columns of 9 letters, with the column to the right being multiplied by 10 to create a new numerical value for each of the 22 letters plus the 5 final ones which equals 27
digit/number 1 -- (name of the 3 mothers-aleph) =A
digit/number 8 -- (esoteric meaning) =enclosure
digit/number 4 -- (esoteric meaning) = door
digit/number 7 -- (esoteric meaning) =weapon
the weapon on the map could there for be pointing out your "X" marks the spot , note the letter D on the dagger which also saying door as a letter/number esoteric meaning
with refs to dagger on the stones according to msn encantra Encyclopedia
link to http://encarta.msn.com/Dagger.html
definition of a dagger is :-
dagger
- sign used as reference mark: a sign () that is used as a reference mark, especially to a footnote
(a cross marks the spot ?? )
I also think a dagger can mean IN REVERSE as treasure mark/symbol , if you turn the stone over you have your cross again on the back of this stone.
link to Hebrew Alphabet
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/HebAlphabetNumbers.htm
Templars used this meathod of coding according to what found wrote here -
http://www.shoutingground.com/~bigred/TemplarGold.html
also this method of esoteric coding was also used by WITCHCRAFT OCCULT this could explain why there is a WITCH MAP ASWELL
looking on the witch map
8 N-P
8 = ENCLOSURE --------CAVE
N = FISH -------CHRISTIAN ( + )
P = MOUTH ------- JESUS PUT MONEY IN A FISHES MOUTH
M = WATER (MINUS M NO WATER)
ALSO THE LETTERS N + P + M are all final letters in Hebrew alpabet
witch map is possibly showing the final location
there is another code i seen used on these maps aswell ,
Just curious. What did you see on the stone maps that led you to believe there may be a Hebrew connection?
Home Base
Twisted Fork
Utah
Okay......I give up.....This has gone on long enough. Look across the river from Blue House. The Black Mnt. to the south is the hat. Don't go crazy guys. Good Hunting to ya'all. Twisted
Jim,would you like to see The Heart of the Holy Faith? YA sound like you have a golden Heart.You can report back to our friends hear at this site.e-mail me.
re: EL COAZON DE SANTA FE Jim Hatt
Apache Junction
Sure Eugene, I'd like to see your heart, send it to me. Might as well have something else to occupy my time since I can't find that blue house north of the river. :)
I have an office that looks out at the north side of red mountain. I have stared at that mountain for about 6 years now. The only thing that stands between my office and red mountain is the salt river. Looking at the stone called the "Trail Map" I cannot help but see a surprising resemblance to what I look at every day. The Train Map notes four peaks on the left which looks very much like fountain hills, not four peaks. The line running under what looks like red mountain would be the salt river. The hole in the stone just under what could be a representation of sombrero mountain looks like a hill just to the east of red mountain. To the south east of that is a formation that looks like a finger pointing in the air. The right upper portion of the stone map shows what I believe is red mountain. Note that it is seen as being slightly higher in elevation than the four peaks represented to the left. Thats exactly how fountain hills looks when looking at it from the south side of red mountain. Fountain hills does look like four peaks to the left and slightly lower in elevation than red mountain. Note the indication of 3 small hills in front of what looks like red mountain on the map to the lower right. There are such hills in front of red mountain on the south side of the salt river with red mountain on the north side as shown on the stone tablet. To this day this section of land is strickly off limits to hikers. I was wondering whether the reference to four peaks was a deliberate clue thrown out to mislead as an indication of the superstitions when it really reffered to the mountain peaks of fountain hills. Lastly this view looks surprisingly similar to the old peralta maps as well.
Keith, There is a book "Lost Dutchman Discoveries" by Jay Fraser, http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/entries/fraser.html in which the author makes an fair case for the Lost Dutchman Mine and the Lost Peralta Mines being in Red Mountain area. He found several old mines on the mountain and a good number of landmarks that he links to traditional clues to the Lost Dutchman. There is also a video tape by the same title and author. It has been about 15 years since I read that book, but I do recall a chapter in it about the stone maps. You might want to get yourself a copy of the book and compare your theories to his. I have stood on the south side of the river and studdied Red Mountain. It does beckon to you as a place that holds many secrets, but I believe the stone maps apply to the Superstition Mountains. Jim
jim is right
the blindbowman
i dont get much time to post or reply these days .. but jim is right the LDM is in the supers .
Where can I obtain clear images of the Latin Heart? The one on this site has fairly poor resolution. Also, images of the crosses would be useful.
Thanks.
Sorry Tom, I still cannot upload images to this forum. You will have to click on my name and send your request via e-mail with a return address.
Jim
jim
the blindbowman
you may have herd i found 3 hydrothermal vents called dead black smokers near weavers needle .we believe they may be the real LDM or the Wagoner site , 40-48ft around at the up rim of the large funnel shape surounded by trees and heavy brush ...
if you want to see pics email me jim ....i would like to know if you would like to go on expedition 3 . will you be at the gathering the end of the month ...? let me know...
Tom, I sent you the photos via email. In the mean time I will continue trying to learn how to post images to this forum using the Photobucket site as a host. Maybe someday I will figure it out.
Jim
Hi Jim
Question: Where can a guy get hold of a GPR unit for a couple of days? I have a site I would like to run one over. I have a geology professor friend who can interpret the data for me. Looking for an old mine tunnel. Possibly as much as 15 feet of rock overburden so something in the neighborhood of 250 MHz should resolve it.
I don't have any idea Tom. I doubt that you can just rent one. You will probably have to find someone that owns one and hire them to do the survey for you. Your friend that knows how to read the printouts would probably be your best source for finding someone that owns one. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Jim
I find this all interesting because my name is Peralta Carmen Peralta
Gainesville, Texas
I have just began to look into this whole thing, but I believe the 18 reperesents a length,ie. miles maybe, because if you put the stones together there appears to be 18 dots along a line leading to the center of the heart. Also, the translation in the cross is incorrect. It is not the "cave", it is the "curve". That is the correct translation. "The treasure of the church of santa fe is at the curve of the steep mountains." The stone with the horse translates "I pasture North of Del Rio". I would like to examine the writing more closley. The writing on the heart, for example is a poor copy and difficult to make out on here. It does appear to be a map when the stones are placed together. the numbers at the bottom are also interesting. I believe the 3 represents three mines that are marked by the double circles. 18 represents the miles?, kilometers? or other measurement. I am not sure about the other.
I find this all interesting because my name is Peralta Carmen Peralta
Gainesville, Texas
I have just began to look into this whole thing, but I believe the 18 reperesents a length,ie. miles maybe, because if you put the stones together there appears to be 18 dots along a line leading to the center of the heart. Also, the translation in the cross is incorrect. It is not the "cave", it is the "curve". That is the correct translation. "The treasure of the church of santa fe is at the curve of the steep mountains." The stone with the horse translates "I pasture North of Del Rio". I would like to examine the writing more closley. The writing on the heart, for example is a poor copy and difficult to make out on here. It does appear to be a map when the stones are placed together. the numbers at the bottom are also interesting. I believe the 3 represents three mines that are marked by the double circles. 18 represents the miles?, kilometers? or other measurement. I am not sure about the other.
I have just began to look into this whole thing, but I believe the 18 reperesents a length,ie. miles maybe, because if you put the stones together there appears to be 18 dots along a line leading to the center of the heart. Also, the translation in the cross is incorrect. It is not the "cave", it is the "curve". That is the correct translation. "The treasure of the church of santa fe is at the curve of the steep mountains." The stone with the horse translates "I pasture North of Del Rio". I would like to examine the writing more closley. The writing on the heart, for example is a poor copy and difficult to make out on here. It does appear to be a map when the stones are placed together. the numbers at the bottom are also interesting. I believe the 3 represents three mines that are marked by the double circles. 18 represents the miles?, kilometers? or other measurement. I am not sure about the other.
The translation of the priest map {although, to me this resembles more of a witch than a priest}, translates "this _______is dangerous, I go 18 places, seek the map, seek the heart." I do not know the translation for Bereoa other than a place in Greece. The horse map translates completely as "The horse of Sante Fe, I pasture to the North of Del Rio."
Hello Carmen, Your translations stand just as good a chance of being correct as mine or anyone elses. With over 100 dialects of the Spanish language (in existance today) the possibilities are almost unlimited. Jim
Hello Carmen, Your translations stand just as good a chance of being correct as mine or anyone elses. With over 100 dialects of the Spanish language (in existance today) the possibilities are almost unlimited. Jim
Hello Carmen, Your translations stand just as good a chance of being correct as mine or anyone elses. With over 100 dialects of the Spanish language (in existance today) the possibilities are almost unlimited. Jim
Hello Carmen, Your translations stand just as good a chance of being correct as mine or anyone elses. With over 100 dialects of the Spanish language (in existance today) the possibilities are almost unlimited. Jim
Hello Carmen, Your translations stand just as good a chance of being correct as mine or anyone elses. With over 100 dialects of the Spanish language (in existance today) the possibilities are almost unlimited. Jim
Map Clarification
azmula
Arizona
Carmen,
A couple of notes to help you with your map studies. When the maps were created distance was measured in "varas" and leagues. Do not let the line with the drill points confuse you. The 18 points are not on the lline , the line line is disguising the dots. Forget the line concentrate on the "correct" dots. Consider the translation , I pasture north of the Del Rio" is modern Spanglish. It translates as "I pasture north of the river". Keep English separate from Spanish. Last "Bereoa" must not be legible. The correct word is "BEREDA" (trail).
I hope this helps you to get started. If you need a good clear set of maps send me a PM and we will get you maps that will make sense to you.
azmula
Map Clarification
azmula
Arizona
Carmen,
A couple of notes to help you with your map studies. When the maps were created distance was measured in "varas" and leagues. Do not let the line with the drill points confuse you. The 18 points are not on the lline , the line line is disguising the dots. Forget the line concentrate on the "correct" dots. Consider the translation , I pasture north of the Del Rio" is modern Spanglish. It translates as "I pasture north of the river". Keep English separate from Spanish. Last "Bereoa" must not be legible. The correct word is "BEREDA" (trail).
I hope this helps you to get started. If you need a good clear set of maps send me a PM and we will get you maps that will make sense to you.
azmula
Map Clarification
azmula
Arizona
Carmen,
A couple of notes to help you with your map studies. When the maps were created distance was measured in "varas" and leagues. Do not let the line with the drill points confuse you. The 18 points are not on the lline , the line line is disguising the dots. Forget the line concentrate on the "correct" dots. Consider the translation , I pasture north of the Del Rio" is modern Spanglish. It translates as "I pasture north of the river". Keep English separate from Spanish. Last "Bereoa" must not be legible. The correct word is "BEREDA" (trail).
I hope this helps you to get started. If you need a good clear set of maps send me a PM and we will get you maps that will make sense to you.
azmula
Hello Azmula, I have read some of your articles on other websites. Although you and I differ in some ways on the interpretation of the stone maps, I am always impressed with your knowledge of Jesuit history and your apparent dedication to unlocking the mystery of the stone maps. In your post to Carmen you said The 18 points are not on the line , the line is disguising the dots. Forget the line concentrate on the "correct" dots. To my loss, I cannot figure out what it is that you are trying to tell her about the lines and dots. Any way you could put it into other words that might make your meaning more clear to me? I very much look forward to your future input on the subject and welcome your comments and theories even tho they may contradict some of my own. Jim Hatt
Clear Maps?
Elwood
Apache Junction, AZ
There are no dates on the previous posts so I find it hard to determine at what point in time these posts were made. Anyway, you have implied that you have a clear set or copies of the stone maps. I have a question for you; On the Horse Map in the upper left the number 5 can be found. If you take a closer look at the symbol you should actually see a heart with the number 7 centered on top. You will need to see this symbol in a mirror to make it so. If you cannot see the heart on your map you do not have a clear copy. I have hundreds of pictures of the so called originals that were taken many years ago and the heart completes the symbol. Try this, draw a heart and put a number seven in the center and place the bottom of the seven on the center of the heart's lobe. Take your drawing and look at it in the mirror and you will see the symbol as it was meant to be seen as shown on the original map. This is one of the many flaws found on the casted maps. There are other flaws. Do not discard any ideas that you believe are pertinent to the 5. We all knew that a reverse was called for, so what else on the maps must be understood by using the reverse technique? Realizing the importance of this rule can drive you nuts, so remember this word; KISS = keep it simple stupid. If the maps are used as maps they will take you where you need to go. The heart and the seven can be found on the site, you will not see them until you arrive. Search for the horse, follow his directions. This is step one. So, who should you trust? El Cobollo de Santa Fe, the horse of the holy faith. His eyes are fixed on the cross.
Elwood, I beg to differ with your statement regarding flaws in the cast reproductions of the stone maps. There are a very limited number of sets in existence in museums and private collections. Everyone that owns a set has compared them to the original stones or very good photos of them. Nobody has ever reported finding the slightest flaw in them. I would be very interested in knowing where you got that information or whose set of cast reproductions you were looking at when you determined that they contained flaws. I will definitely follow up on it if the information is provided. Regarding your number 7 in the heart, etc. etc. etc. I can only suggest that you take your own advice to use the KISS method when working with the stone maps and forget about using mirrors to look for hidden information on them. Jim Hatt
did you figerout what mark townsman made on the stones yet ...???
i didnt think so , lol
Get a life Blindbowman
Here to Help
Elwood
Woolsey Peak, AZ
I like you Blindwoman, you would be welcome to my fire anytime. I am here to help and here to teach. If that's OK. I will say this: I am not a know-it-all and I have made mistakes, I see them on this forum. By the way, if you have a question ask it and I will answer if I can. No, I will not tell you where the treasures are located as they do not belong to me. There are some gopher deposits and they are up for grabs, if any are still to be found. Kenworthy may have gotten lucky, yeah, I can still see his smile. Take a look at the horse map on the web page where you can see the copies that are presented there. Transfer pic to pictures and start by enlarging the image. It is faint, like the tail of the R below in the word RIO (another very clever clue). Look close and you will see the other half of the lobe. Attention to detail all.
The rest of the heart should be there; the lobe is also on the left side connected to the bottom part of the five. The right curved part of the 5 is the other half. What you see on the top of the heart is a backward 7. If you want to understand what this symbol means you must reverse it. As I mentioned earlier the symbol can mean 3 different things. The map told us to study the heart; what does this mean...1. It is only a 5, 2. it is a heart with a reversed 7, or 3. it is a heart with a seven on its top. This sign has to do with ownwership, it is telling you to look for other reversed clues and it is telling you where the heart is located. First off. Who does this map belong to? What group of priest's belong to the Order of the Sacred Heart? What does the number 7 stand for? Yes, we know that the heart stands for the King's gold and the number 7 also defines gold. Remember, do not forget about the 5, for it was meant to stand out. What does the number 5 stand for people? KISS. One thing we do know is that the Church is depicted all over this map; crosses, holy faith, priests, the number 3 and so on. KISS, one clue at a time. I am not trying to put one over on anyone. No one has found the Dutchman yet, right? Not even Kenworthy, I used to eat dinner with him at the Village Inn in AJ. Another test of knowledge Blindwoman, gotta make sure you are on the right page, if not I know you will straighten me out. I have a question for all of you. If you know the answer tell me what it has to do with these maps: Where was the treasure loaded before it ended up in the hold of the Atocha. I know where because Chuck and I have often talked about it. Or better yet if you run into Salvadore ask him about the Nino De Atocha, you can learn alot from an Indian guide. I do not know it all, but Chuck trusted me with his knowledge and I trusted him with mine. Before his horrible, suffering death he was working at the end of Idaho Road. I wonder why? Pick up a copy of John Wilburn's book, add this information to your knowledge base. If you smoke, please quit. Chuck really wanted to, he just couldn't stop. I will tell you this, I do miss him. He was very kind to my mother who has also left this world to be with Christ. You see, she use to T-hunt with me and Dad,we had a blast, an adventure, all three of us did. Mom, Dad and I, we all have a relationship with Christ, Mom is with my Dad and hopefully Chuck too. Every time I hit the trail they go with me. Place your treasure in Heaven. Lets have some fun while we hunt for the GOLD, just do not forget your GOD!
lol i am sorry you thaught that was a joke . i was being truefull . when you solve the stone it is very easy to defind what townsman mark was ... sorry you did not under stand the joke ...and yes i do know what mark he made ...dillman is the only one i have seen even close yet .. and Ray is dead , dan and is family dosent have much hope with out him . IMHO .. JIm if you think that was makeing fun of you you were wrong what you beleive dose not concern me at this piont ..
i wish you lots of luck ,you need it ...
townsman made the mark thinking the map was saying something it wasnt so his mark dose not read the way the real translation dose ,.. so his mark stands out as not being part of the real map , thats what i ment ...
ASU Test Positive
Elwood
AJAZ
I spoke with Nyal this P.M. and the Stone Maps are the real McCoy! I will talk with Les tomorrow and see if I can get a copy of the report. We told everyone the truth, so Gentlemen, lets have a cold one.
Golden Crescent
Elwood
AJ, AZ
Jesse E (Ed) Rascoe wrote a book and mentioned a phrase, "The Golden Crescent". Who can tell me what he was referring to? Any ideas or logical thoughts would be appreciated. There is a crescent depicted on the horse on the Horse Map.
Stone Map Trail?
azmula
Arizona
Jim,
The 18 points are not on the line , the line is disguising the dots. Forget the line concentrate on the "correct" dots.
In my opinion (which I have stated else where), there is no trail carved on the stone maps. If you remove the line from the drawing, identify the dots that are selected by the indicators you will find some very interesting facts... You can read and follow where I am going on the other forum site. Open your mind from the traditional views of the stone maps, they have been misinterpreted since before they were brought to Arizona from Texas.
azmula
the blindbowman
the stones are not from texas , that is a out right fact ! and very easy to prove . they do piont to locations in the supersitition mts ,,,.they were made by Deniz of portugal around the years of 1279-1325 ...
the blindbowman
the stones are not from texas , that is a out right fact ! and very easy to prove . they do piont to locations in the supersitition mts ,,,.they were made by Deniz of portugal around the years of 1279-1325 ...
From Texas ?
Elwood
Goodyear, AZ.
Azmula, I would be interested to learn why you believe the Stone Maps are from Texas. I have a friend who believes that they fit an area in New Mexico that he has been working on for the last ten years. He has found clues, markers and photos to prove it. I will not say that he is wrong because he has his reasons. He believes they can be worked in more than one area. If that is the case, why not others? I will keep my mind open while you explain your beliefs. I may or may not disagree with you once I understand your statements, but at least I will keep and open mind.
Hello Azmula, The last time I did a search for the stone maps there were 35 or 40 websites about them. I checked a couple of them that I have on my favorites list and could not find your article that I had read a couple of years ago. Which website are you refering to? You could be right about the lines and dots, but they work pretty good for me in the Superstitions. Jim
Stone Maps
azmula
Arizona
Elwood,
There are 100's of potential areas that would be similar to that identified on the stone maps in the Southwest USA. Has your friend mentioned the approximate latitude, per chance 30-35 degrees?
Jim,
Check the following website: www.lostdutchmanmines.com
azmula
Friend in N.M.
Elwood
Goodyear, AZ
His location is somewhere near the Caballo Mountains. I have not yet been to his site although we plan to go next spring. I have seen many photos of the area and it does look promising. Who knows? We will give it a good shot.
I confused....
Jason
North Phoenix
I read in in Robert Joseph Allen's "The Story of Superstition Mountain and The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine" that Alfred Strong Lewis and associates found the Peralta and Walz mine and mined it. Is it just that some people wish to believe that there is still a lost mine? The book has some really convincing evidence that the mine that Lewis found hidden under the boulder is the same one that Walz had found.
Allen, Robert Joseph. The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine. Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Jason, The following is part of a review of Allen's book by Doug Stewart from http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/entries/allen.html. "Allen's book is very annoying. Not only is it shot through with inaccuracies and misstatements of simple fact it also contains a number of outrageous fabrications. Allen's ability as a writer tends to mask just how inaccurate an account this is, appearing factual and historical when it is one of the tallest of tall tales in the Lost Dutchman genre". I rarely buy a book about the Lost Dutchman Mine without going to this website and readings Doug's review first.
Thanks
Jack
Tucson
I was almost about to buy that book, but now I won't
Jack,I never recommend that someone NOT read a book. This book sells for around $2.95 or less on eBay almost weekly. Not a big investment. It is worth reading just to know what is in it, so you will know when someone is quoting from it. As Doug mentioned, Allen's ability as a writer is impressive, and he presents an interesting story that is believable to anyone not familiar with the true history of the legend.
Jim
I've tried repeatedly over the past few years to gain access to the Peralta Stones so that I might photograph them; making high resolution images available to others. Do you have contact information? Email is continuously ignored.
The last I knew, the original stone maps were kept at the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, Located at 1502 West Washington Street, (Northwest corner of 15th Avenue & Washington Street), Phoenix, AZ
Tel: +1 602 255 3791; U.S. Toll-free: +1 800 446 4259 They have a website at: http://mines.az.gov/General/museum.html. Sorry if I did not respond to your e-mail. As you can imagine, I get a lot of it from this site. So much that I go through it quickly deleting anything that looks like spam before I start reading any of it. If you write again, try putting Peralta Stone Maps in the Subject line. Jim
Jim
I meant that the Mineral Museum has ignored my emails for several years; not you. Thanks for the swift reply. I'm hoping to find a specific person to contact. I also wish to see the originals; not replicas.
Flagg Foundation
azmula
Arizona
Tom,
You have to contact the Flagg Foundation directly. I have there address at home I will try to post it this evening. They charge between $75- $100 to photograph the maps. They sell photos on CD for around $50 last time I talked to them. It is not easy setting up an appointment to see the maps.
Alternate, there is a set of color photos done by Jack San Felice that might still be available at no cost.
Until to night.
azmula
Tom , The only email address I could find in my notes was sundog@azminfun.com they were a little slow to respond to me but maybe my expectations were too high. Good luck... azmula
LOL ,...you guys got to be jokeing , you havent put two and two toather yet ... the DLM has nothing to do with the stone tablets . never did . the DLM is in the area but thats it ...
Appear Templar Stone Maps
Woodpecker
These maps appear to be knights Templar Stone maps,
more info can be found here,
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,138973.msg987762.html#new
The debate over who made the stone maps has gone on since the day they were found. Likewise, the debate over who found them, where and when continues to this day. The bottom line of these debates, is of course to form a conclusion about whether or not the stones are authentic maps to hidden treasure or lost mines. It is up to every individual to make his own decision about the authenticity of the maps based on his own research and which stories he chooses to believe about where they were found, and who actually found them. In my article above, I present the story I have chosen to believe, based on my own research, and first hand conversations with individuals who personally knew Travis Tumlinson, Bill Hidden, Clarence Mitchell, Mike Bilbrey and other primary characters in the legend of the stone maps. My personal opinion is that they are authentic maps to both hidden treasure and lost mines, that are located within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. Having come to that conclusion many years ago, and seen what I consider to be supporting evidence in the field, (which stretches from U.S. 60 near Florence Junction all the way to the Salt River) I strive to focus my time and efforts on solving the mystery of where the maps lead to. The pages on this website contain many comments I have made for the authenticity of the stone maps, and arguments I have made against the idea that they are fakes. The pages of many other websites contain watered down and modified versions of my statements, and theories that have been shared via private conversations and e-mails over the last 10 years with numerous individuals. That I believe the stone maps are authentic is a well known fact. The best evidence for why I believe that, is a closely guarded secret and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I have no opinion about whether the Knights Templar were involved in making the maps or not. If you believe that, I think you should focus on making a solid connection between the Templars and the Jesuits, since I have personally seen physical evidence that leads me to believe the Jesuits were involved. I am open minded to the idea that the Jesuits may have been educated in the methods of the Templars, and utilized that knowledge in making the stone maps. The path you are on is an interesting one that may lead to something significant in solving the riddle of the stone maps.
i can out right prove the stone tablets are in fact authentic, and will prove this to the NFS within the next 10 days ...i am releaseing my research to scott wood of the NFS for my on-going request for my 2 treasure trove premits , its time to find out if there is enough evidence to prove the legends are true ...
if i posted a page of my new book here at this site everyone would know that the stone tablets have now been translated correctly ...
its all wrong
clive
Phoenix,az
to Jim Hatt,Im looking down a trail and I fear its ending. call me at 6233269808
I like puzzles, but I gave up on riddles a long time ago. I participate in the discussions here, and sometimes correspond via email (you can click on my name above to send one to me)but that is about as personal as I get. If you get any calls at the number you posted, you will be on your way to understanding why.
LOL . playing hard to get now days ....jim ...?
dont worry jim , i have 8 100% postive correlation matches between the stones and a geographical area .a 100% correct translation proveing i have solve the stone tablets ...
thousand have tryed ..
.some of the smartest in the world ....
58 years before the stones were translated correctly...
translated by a legally blind navigational speaical ops QM from upstate new york...
i agree, game over!
No Riddles Here
clive
phoenix,az
Ive been working on this for about a month now,dont(lol),and I get the strange feeling the LDM is only the begining,or the last trace of what this area truely was about.The desert plays tricks with us ,we think we see water,we will go.One question, are the clues left behind,really that of jacob waltz
Trick to the Trail
clive
phoenix,az
I sent you an email, containing information containg the trick to the trail
useful info
clive
phoenix,az
Im going to assume that info was useful jim, be safe out there...1847
Who's Holding Out
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale,Arizona
Has anyone ever looked at the back of the horse map and the back of the priest maps, there could be small clues that may have been overlooked . And another note I have seeeeeeeeeeennnnnn some of those same markings that are on the stone crosses,in the superstition mountains along the walls of some canyons,in that same area where my buddy and i got side tracked we also noticed there were no other trail of footprints or markings of human presence at all, not even animals prints,if these people claim to bee looking for whatever is out there,why havent they seen those same marking and documented them instead of the useless photos we see in the articles here..............Peace out Turd lickers
Turd Ferguson Jim Hatt
In the shadow of the needle
Hang on a second Turd - The Horse Map IS the back of the Priest map and visa versa. It was a good thought tho. Jim
the blindbowman
thats the diffrence between treasure hunters and navigational speacal ops Quarter Masters .i have it pinpionted with in 1 cubic yard ...
in fact if you were Ron Feldman you would be one of the luckest people in AZ.
REALLY ON ONE STONE
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale,arizona
In the picture above there is a photo with 2 separate,those must be copies,I see,You must have had hands on knowledge of the stones Jim.If you dont mind me asking ,what was the feeling like when you first held them,you may know this already but the DON on the back of the trail.I know in Mexican history the used to refer to a certain person of power,knowledge,and wisdom as "DON".Like Don Teresa or Don Carlos,of course someone of importance created the trail maps. I also looked into some Peralta history through some connections I know in Mexico ,the speak of covered mines and things like that,I plan to go down there. But the interesting thing is this,the also speak of a Don Carlos ,a supposed brother of Don Miguel.Carlos was killed,Why,dont know , my good friends grandmother speaks of stories told to her as a kid and ,old folks got some stories.Anyways,Jim, do you have Great photos of the maps and the 2 stone crosses along with the latin heart, that your willing to share,the photos i have are not good.My email is maryjaneandmario@gmail.com,feel free to leave a TIP or TIPS. I got to be honest these maps are INTERESTING,bottom line..............
LIAR ,LIAR Blindwoman or whatever
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale,arizona
I dont believe you and im thinking No one else does, If you solved the greatest find ,ever hands down,you wouldnt need the gold to be rich . Your story alone would be worth millions.You dont know where Waldo is, and you expect people here to believe you found the truth behind the maps,"yeah right",and I know the truth about the death of JFK.Your probably using Google earth,which is a great program might I add,typing at the same time explaining your great finds around you computer area.Good luck to those that are serious,like the JIM dude,he probably knows where it is.....BLINDBOWMAN you are deemed A "TURD LICKER"
i was so impressed with your lack of inteligence,tell you opened your mouth....LOL
to many react like that to try to find clues because they have little chance of solveing anything on their own ....
no hard feelings
the blindbowman
today i made this post after reading the replies above ,,,,,today i emailed the phoenix news paper , i plan to release the location to 3 reporters over the phone at the same time so no one preson can keep it hiden again ,. this treasure belongs to the world . if i am poor or not ,i feel the true value of solveing the stone tablets will for ever be mine and that i value more then the treasure it sef ....
the LDM is mine .....LOL i maybe poor but i am not an idiot .....LOL wish me luck, your friend the Blindbowman
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale ,Arizona
OKAY ,Im reading what you wrote,and reading inbetween the lines of what you wrote ,BlindOne,and the story inbetween the lines is much better.You saying Im fishing 4 clues futher lets me know you REALLY dont know where anything is,you keep saying 3 locations,here's a Clue since the BLINDONE cant see,there 1 location and its not treasure.Whats stollen isn't considered treasure,and you say YOUR not a TREASURE HUNTER,,all these phone interviews you talk of ,NEWS 3,5,10,12,15,mexican news,sportscenter,cnn,mtv,bet,weatherchannel would showup at you house probably at the sametime,and you say the PHOENIX TIMES,come on man or woman.And 1 last thing I never said you were poor,I dont know you and dont consider things like that fun,if you misunderstood something I APOLOGIZE....
why would i care ...lol
well from people thanking me and some very real death threats and few very well dirrected warnings , i can out right say these may be the right thing to do but only a few honest people agree ..scott wood wanted me to hold off a week or more and another preson came right out and said someone else is not happy with my little game and how it looks like it will play out ... i out right said i would not release the location of the LDM yet i posted a picture of the ore vein and then delited it a few mintues after ... at this piont i have no idea what will happen is that great or what ... maybe not who knows ...i can out right tell you who i would like to talk to right now . thats Ron Feldman Ron not only made one of the smartest statements i have herd yet in the LDM debait but he may be the only one i still trust ...makes me wonder how many donkeys he has ...lol gold get heavy by the hour they say ....
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale ,Arizona
Thats sucks your getting death threats and you just said it yourself people dont like the game your playing.I still dont think you know the answer to the stones(thats my opinion)so dont get your pannies in a bunch over there,but if you have something,keep it to yourself until your ready to share it with the world,no more games,we are to grown and there are people that put RAW emotion into this stuff,so be REal with Yourself first ,"BOY WHO CRIED WOLF" stiil one of the most powerful stories till this day.Where is this picture posted,if you dont mind me asking
its not that i dont have evidence ,its that i do ,and they know it .. some of these people have a lot of money in land and movie rights and they dont want anyone else solveing the legend but them ... what shit dude , i really was enjoying the legend and i did solve it ... now i cant even give the treasure away what BS ....people get pist when you dont give them clues but when you give them to much they get even more pist ...lol
i delite the photograph ,it was at treaure net....
now what . i set around waiting for scott wood to say OK i got time to read the data now . a few weeks from now ... or have people get all pist off at me for solveing the legend . this sucks
let me at lest try to explan ..
there was a real location known as Aztlan . it wasnt some mythical dream world , the legend ws past down from a real location , i beleive this location is in the supersitition mts , in one area i have found 3 diffrent sites that fit the legenday out line of AZtlan ...frist Montezuma was said to be barried there on a particlar t that bares his image . thats my site one i showed scott woods where this site was in my request for my treasure trove premit ...another site is site 4 , the seven caves of chicomoztoc ,i just posted a picture of a simbolic cut into one of the walls of this cave system , it matches the simbolic found on the headress of one of the main two figers on the seven caves of chicomoztoc codec ,its posted at treasure net.. and then we have the sacifical site ... this 3 sites all related to each other that shows evidence the legend could posable be true ,not only true but in reality be a real location found by Aztec in Arizona, do you think that if there is even a little chance i could be right and here could be the only king ever barried on American soil and this legendary place of Aztlan could be right in front of us , dont you think its worth the chance to investate these sites .. this is pre-american histroy in the makeing , this discovery is just waiting to happen . and if i have to kick start it then i will ...i have no problem what so ever proveing these sites are real ..i handed scott wood site #1 on a silver plater ... you want the lost dutchman mine ,you want LDM before it was the LDM and before that it was the Gonzales & prealta mine , before that it was the seven caves of chicomoztoc,,,,the legends waiting and so am i !scott dosent want anything found it may make to much paper work for him ...lol
the blindbowman
dont set there and make fun of me and make jokes do something about it , write the NFS and ask them to look into these clams , write the pheonix republacan news paper and ask them to hear me out , i sent them a emil about site #1 ,,.... no answer yet .. i cant bring the sites to the world , the world has to come to the sites ...i will not destrub these site , the Aztec and the native american peoples deserve better then that .. there is no room for greed in histroy .....dont set and waste time make stupid jokes , take that time to write the news paper and ask them to hear me out ,, i will put up or shut up ! and i have no problems backing what i have said ....this is a shared histroy between mexico and America . i have made a discovery worth of changeing histroy for the better i hope ...
and yes i have release the location of site #1 at treasure net in the Aztec gold forum ....
THE REAL BLINDBOMAN PLEASE STAND UP
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale,arizona
Your about 70% correct and im being generous with that,your on the right path but not quite there,I believe you may have some sites that have some markings and thats Great dont get me wrong,but your not there. If you were we would have crossed paths and had this conversation face to face. This weekend I was with the protecters of this land,and found some useful things thats may open some doors for all of us.Trust me Blindboman,PLEASE,your not there,think about everyone that has died,they knew WHERE it was,your close,your VERY close,you have tasted the TRUTH,and didnt even realize it
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale ,Arizona
Sorry about the Identity thing Jim,so you think Im on to something,you dont even know the half. After what I was told,I havent been to sleep yet since I emailed you yesterday with that info and it makes Perfect sense,LOOK for yourself,its there,think about it he escaped so easily."Catch and Release" Not only is the legend true, I think a New blazin trail to the TRUTH about whats really going on here,has just presented itself.
you better look again, i was not looking for gold
i was looking for ,,,, a book writen 20,000 years before columbus , the AZtlan book of shadows .... the magic ,spells and curses are the oldest ever known to the human race ...yes, i got the book , mankind was not chosen , i was ...lol
Your Weird
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale ,Arizona
When you come to Arizona I will say hello ,Until then your congradulations on your find and CANT WAIT to see it on the news or better yet The Dicovery Channel thats going to be awsome ,until then take care enjoy life.Turd
my own goals are not the question here . the real question is . is this the real AZtlan . it dose in fact fit the legend of AZtlan in many ways as well as the geographical discription of Aztlan . the mt i call heart mt is called MA by the tribes and is part of MAPA mesa . yet the chichiman name it self means :
Word origin
The Nahuatl name Chīchīmēcah (plural, singular Chīchīmēcatl; pronounced [tʃiːtʃiːˈmeːkaʔ]) means "inhabitants of Chichiman"; the placename Chichiman itself means "Area of Milk". It is sometimes said to be related to chichi "dog", but the i's in chichi are short while those in Chīchīmēcah are long, a phonemic distinction in Nahuatl.[1] The word could either have a negative "barbarous" sense, or a positive "noble savage" sense.[2]
this translation could also mean MA as in mother ...
i ve found about 14 common facters so far between these sites and AZtlan and the tribes known to have come from Aztlan it self .. like the only tribe of the seven that did not speak aztec was the Acolhcais this how the Acoma got its name . from the place where montezma's tomb is now . is this translation bu the indain some how part of the aco and then the location as the Ma add to the tribe name ,, or a given set of letters of that name . we just dont know at this piont yet the posablities are here and there is dirrect common evidence relateing the sites to Aztklan legend as well as the known tribes of Aztlan ,...
thats beyond the random normal odds IMHO ....
we have had some new reasearch that could defind this site #4 as a clovis site ... we have ask some people from AZU doing research on clovis sites to help us defind these site , to make sure that there is not a older sites clovis site under the site we beleive is chicomoztoc ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you were all haveing to much fun makeing jokes to under stand the data being give to you ...
Montezuma(mythology)
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Montezuma was the name of a heroic-god in the mythology of certain Amerindian tribes of the Southwest United States, notably the Tohono O'odham and Pueblo peoples not to be confused with the two historical Aztec Emperors of the same name in Mexico, Moctezuma I and Moctezuma II.
In the Tohono O'odham legend, at the beginning of time the Great Spirit finds clay by digging a hole; he then drops the clay into the hole again and out comes Montezuma, who assists him in bringing out all the Indian tribes, with the Apache last of all. It is said that all men and animals were speaking a common language in the early days; however a great flood destroyed everyone, with only Montezuma and his friend, Coyote, escaping. Because Coyote had warned him of the flood beforehand, Montezuma had fashioned a boat that he kept prepared on the peak of the Santa Rosa Mountains in Arizona. Coyote likewise made a boat for himself, by gnawing down a giant cane and stopping it with gum.
After the flood had subsided, Montezuma and Coyote meet again atop Monte Rosa, and Montezuma sends Coyote out four times, once in each direction, to find out how far the sea is. He quickly returned from the south and the west, reporting that it was nearby. The journey east took a bit longer, but eventually he found the sea there also. Finally, he journeys northward and never finds water before growing tired.
Meanwhile, the Great Spirit, helped by Montezuma, has again repopulated the world with people and animals. Montezuma is entrusted with the governance of mankind, but becoming proud and wicked, he rebels against the Great Spirit, dismisses Coyote, and commands mankind to build a house tall enough to reach Heaven. Before he can succeed at this endeavour, the Great Spirit casts it down with thunderbolts, causing a confusion in the languages of mankind.
Persisting in his wickedness, Montezuma commands all the temples be destroyed; in response, the Great Spirit punishes him by sending a locust to the east to summon the Spanish, who make war on Montezuma and destroy him.
This legend was related by chief Con Quien of the Tohono O'odham and published in the Indian Affairs Report of 1865, p. 131.
In 1694, natives told Jesuit Father Eusebio Francisco Kino that Montezuma built these cliff dwellings, now preserved as Montezuma Castle National Monument.Bancroft, writing later in the 19th century (Native Races vol 3), speculates that the name of the historical Aztec Emperors Moctezuma (more properly Motecuhzoma in Nahuatl) was the ultimate origin of the mythical hero-god's name the name being "gradually associated in the minds of some of the New Mexican and neighboring tribes, with a vague, mythical, and departed grandeur", until "all the lesser heroes would be gradually absorbed in the greater, and their names forgotten. Their deeds would become his deeds, their fame his fame."
However, other references among the Arizona and New Mexico tribes indicate a belief in "Montezuma" as having been the name of a great king and law-giver of the remote past, who ruled over a vast empire including Mexico, and who is said to be buried inside a particular mountain in Arizona that allegedly bears his image.
Montezuma also figures prominently in the religion of the Pueblo Indians, who held that their god-king Montezuma was variously from Taos, Acoma, or one of the other pueblos, and was conceived from a beautiful virgin and a pinyon pine nut. Although weak as a youth, he was chosen to be their unlikely leader, and surprised everyone with his miracles, including the ability to produce rain. He taught the people their customs, and how to build the adobe pueblos. One day he kindled a fire that they were never to allow to burn out, then departed for Mexico (in some versions, on the back of an eagle), promising to return some day and save them from the Spanish.
U.S. Attorney W.W.H. Davis, who visited the Laguna Pueblo in 1855, was allowed a rare glimpse at some sort of idol or icon of their god Montezuma, whereof he gave a vivid description in his book El Gringo. According to Davis, this object was round, nine inches tall and in diameter, and made of tanned skin. The cover was painted half red and half green, and on the green side were triangular holes for eyes, round pieces of leather for the mouth and ears, and no nose. He said it was kept wrapped in cloth, and was sprinkled with a 'white powder'.
The Swiss-American ethnographer Adolph Bandelier asserted in the 1890s that these legends had been invented by the Pueblos fifty years earlier solely to impress American explorers, and were not really part of their religion; he cited a document purporting to be a secret plot to 'teach' the natives that they were the descendants of Emperor Montezuma for political purposes, during the Mexican-American War. However, other documents have since come to light showing that the Spanish too were quite aware of Montezuma's renown in the Pueblo region long before then the earliest such recorded reference dating to 1694, when the natives told Jesuit Father Eusebio Francisco Kino that Montezuma had built what is still today known as Montezuma's Castle (Wilson 1999, p.16).
Finally, Llewellyn Harris, a Welsh-American Mormon missionary who visited the Zuni in 1878, claimed that they told him they were descended from Montezuma, who was himself descended from white men called "Cambaraga" who came from over the sea 300 years before the Spanish, and that they still had many Welsh words in their language (see Madoc for many more tales along this theme). However, these much more sensational claims have never been independently verified.
Montezuma also figures prominently in the religion of the Pueblo Indians, who held that their god-king Montezuma was variously from Taos, Acoma, or one of the other pueblos, and was conceived from a beautiful virgin and a pinyon pine nut. Although weak as a youth, he was chosen to be their unlikely leader, and surprised everyone with his miracles, including the ability to produce rain. He taught the people their customs, and how to build the adobe pueblos. One day he kindled a fire that they were never to allow to burn out, then departed for Mexico (in some versions, on the back of an eagle), promising to return some day and save them from the Spanish.
U.S. Attorney W.W.H. Davis, who visited the Laguna Pueblo in 1855, was allowed a rare glimpse at some sort of idol or icon of their god Montezuma, whereof he gave a vivid description in his book El Gringo. According to Davis, this object was round, nine inches tall and in diameter, and made of tanned skin. The cover was painted half red and half green, and on the green side were triangular holes for eyes, round pieces of leather for the mouth and ears, and no nose. He said it was kept wrapped in cloth, and was sprinkled with a 'white powder'.
The Swiss-American ethnographer Adolph Bandelier asserted in the 1890s that these legends had been invented by the Pueblos fifty years earlier solely to impress American explorers, and were not really part of their religion; he cited a document purporting to be a secret plot to 'teach' the natives that they were the descendants of Emperor Montezuma for political purposes, during the Mexican-American War. However, other documents have since come to light showing that the Spanish too were quite aware of Montezuma's renown in the Pueblo region long before then the earliest such recorded reference dating to 1694, when the natives told Jesuit Father Eusebio Francisco Kino that Montezuma had built what is still today known as Montezuma's Castle (Wilson 1999, p.16).
Finally, Llewellyn Harris, a Welsh-American Mormon missionary who visited the Zuni in 1878, claimed that they told him they were descended from Montezuma, who was himself descended from white men called "Cambaraga" who came from over the sea 300 years before the Spanish, and that they still had many Welsh words in their language (see Madoc for many more tales along this theme). However, these much more sensational claims have never been independently verified.
this is the statement i was refering to ...
:However, other references among the Arizona and New Mexico tribes indicate a belief in "Montezuma" as having been the name of a great king and law-giver of the remote past, who ruled over a vast empire including Mexico, and who is said to be buried inside a particular mountain in Arizona that allegedly bears his image."
there is something you should know
it is IMHO my under standing of the events that took place ,that the vatcan was despanding the templar for a very hidden reason ... they had try to delite and record of native savages (or beast) be related to god fearing people of their chruch and religion . mainly trying to delite any dirrect link to the bible and book of Revelation
"and there well be 7 bowls that will pore out over the land .the 7 cibola sites ....and there well be 7 seals ,the saven caves of chicomoztoc . the 7th cave of chicomoztoc is still sealed .you do not have to beleive me , they do not have to grant me the permits .i can brake the 7th seal any time i wish and what you beleive or they beleive will not stop the Revelation .....
the bowl have been found and they are poreing out they have been made public .......the Ray dillman wax stamp was the seal of the templar that sealed the scoll of life . IMHO it is a record of bloodlines dateing back into the native american tribes ...this is what i beleive the chruch was tying to cover up ...when the templar found the scolls on the temple mont , the chruch want to destroy them and the templar woud not let them ....
can i prove this . i have no idea yet .. but if i brake the seal you will know with out a dout ...if i am right or wrong ......if the human race wants me to open the 7th seal . just say so . if you dont beleive thats ok .. i have a hard time beleiveing it as well ...
see there is a logical reason why i know what i know.....no this is not a joke ...7 bowls (bola) ,7 houses (caves ) 7 seals...
go ahead ,call me names tell me how much you know and what i dont know .. give me a reason to open the 7th seal ....i dis like the human race to start with .
say whats on your mind why you still can....
...you could cause 6.35 billion people to vanish ... what do you have to say now ...
welcome to Revelations ....
Symbols
Jae
Sedona Arizona
I'm sure we are not the only ones in Arizona who have a whole bookshelf designated for books related to treasures, gold, maps etc. One of the books that is the most used and tucked in each of our back packs is Mike (Hawkeye) Picketts Field Notebook. His website is http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/index.html If the link does not copy and paste just search Treasure Hunters University. You'll find a wealth of info there. Hearts and Crosses are covered pretty throughly in his book. Jae
Stone maps
Comanch
Sedona Az
I have pictures of the copy's of the stone maps. Bob Ward had the copy's before they were given to the museum.
I think that some of the markings on the map were of the prominent mountains in the area of the superstitions as they came in from Mexico
The Preltas and the Gonzales miners would look for land marks that would not change with time or weather.
It looks like they also navigated like they would on a ship, but would use degrees off these points to locate mines and camps.
You also have to consider the Jesuit priest that were in the area.
They may of had a hand in the making of the maps. It is said that the priests had 18 spots that they stashed church treasure.
Are the maps real, thats in eye and the mind of who ever looks at them?
Definitly Real
Turd Ferguson
The are real depending on the photos you have ,alot of the photos on the internet are copies of the maps if you look closely on the photos you can tell authentic picture vs the copies.
Just Wanna Help
Turd Ferguson
Scottsdale ,Arizona
To Jim Hatt ,didnt mean to scare you away, just dont want to leave no stone unturned,if your interested in learning about more about Geronimos story I have his grandsons contact info I think you should meet him.....
Would anyone happen to know if the Peralta Stones are carved from quaternary andesite? I suspect they are.
the blindbowman
the stones were made between the years of 1571-1646 ,they were made by Gonzalo Jimnez de Quesada ,they are in code but the reason no one could brake the code is because he had dyslexia the date 1751 on the one stone cross should read 1571 ... that IMHO is when the stone tablets were made they were stolden from the santa ana church in 1912 by freedy crystall ... they have nothing to do with the LDM ...in fact they were at the santa ana church becuase they related to the treasure trove list of tayopa ...that was also at the santa ana church at the time the stones were stolden ...
his name was Gonzalo not Gonzales .. and he did lose 475 men in 1571 ...
Since the stones have Santafe carved into them, and knowing that the 3rd Governor of New Mexico, Don Pedro de Peralta, established the town of "La Villa Real de la Santa F de San Francisco de Ass" in 1609, it seems reasonable to conclude that the stones date no earlier then 1609.
the witch
Josh G.
Mesa, AZ
Isn't there a rock formation that is visible on the north eastern slope of the mountain called the witch? interestingly, there happens to be a witch on the stone maps. any significance?
I happen to know Bob Schoose, Ron Feldman, and decendents of Crazy Jake.
The witch
Josh G.
Mesa, AZ
I apologize for the editing, i left out some info too.
Aren't the Peralta Massacre grounds located just outside of first water near the witch? located between garden valley and the witch?
Also, I have hiked up to and over the saddle next to the witch and there are a lot of caves in that area. Most likely they have been explored already. bummer
Josh, I understand your train of thought concerning the "Witch" on the stone maps, but I believe the Priest's Robe and Crosses assocoated with the figure indicate that it is a Priest rather than a Witch. If you back off a little and look at the big picture it makes a lot more sense. Jim
History or legends
Cotheal Coogan
Within us all!
As children we are told or learn about stories,folklore and legendswich are time forward and reverse. As well as history repeats itself,our time, your time,their time. Who what,where,when and how. Only knowledge of the past to come tells the future of what has been. Turn and turn again untill you go back the same way you came. Lifes mysteries are only to be sought out. Seek and you shall find the corners of life on the world that goes round and round within the turning universe of that which we are! The heart is your guide to follow, the mind takes you for what we percieve as we see. The heart follows the truth of purity, love and hopefully god. Follow what you feel within your heart not what you see. The path is your choice and can be your saviour or fate. Make life don't whatch it waltz by you. Seeing,smelling,touching,tasting and faith make and show us all that you are, that I am, that we are! Everything we are is everything we make or do in life. You are born free to life, but life is not free. As action is reaction, as is good or bad. You can sit and wait or follow, then lead! Kings are legends of the time we make that we have already lived. Lifes door just hast to be opened in a forward positive direction of advancing past and reversing future. The light of day brings shadows of what once was and still is.Follow the path that god once set before us that we lost or was hidden from us. The close of night to the breaking day light show natures beauty in the true form of god and ourselves. Celibrate in the coming of the morning sun to the beginning of a new moon. Seek and you shall find what once was and still is. Legends or the true path of history that still exists!
Wow I am really impressed
LadyD
Scottsdale, AZ
Where can I get copies of all these documentaries? I haven't a clue how I missed them...we watch NGC A&E all the time!
Thanks for all the great information, all of you :)
I finally got here to AZ :)
You didn't leave any contact information. Click on my name and send me an e-mail request for the info you are interested in. Jim
Apology and New Info
Mike McChesney
SoCal
First, it's been quite a while since I posted here, and I missed Jim's last question to me. Sorry.
A person who has identified themselves to me had done as much research on the family and personal history of the Tumlinsons, as I had done on the modern history of the stone maps (maybe more). This person has much documented evidence. I have based my opinions on what was shared privately with me. I know he reads here, and if he so wishes, he can elaborate (or email me with permission to).
New Information,
I became friends with a person here in SoCal that has a set of old copies of the Stone Maps. When I was at his office (where he has them displayed on a wall), I saw something I have never seen before.
The morning sun was coming through the window at a VERY sharp angle (maybe 15 degrees to the side)to the stones. While looking at the Witch/Priest Stone, I saw that the line of symbols that start at the Crucifix on the left side, continue ALL THE WAY to the right side, and end with the word SONORA MEX. All this is EXTREMELY light, and can't really be seen from the front in regular light.
Needless to say, I was astounded. What this says to me, is that what is commonly thought to be a formula of some sort, is actually just a map that starts at the Witch/Priest Crucifix, and ends in Sonora, Mexico.
I am heading out of state for about a week, but will get some pictures and post them sometime next week.
Best-Mike
Good to hear from you again Mike. I was beginning to believe you had lost interest in the stone maps. The "Sonora Mex" on the Priest Map has always been a curiosity to me. It is like the word "Pedro" on the horse's flank. The light has to hit it just right to see it, but it is there. In my opinion they do not offer anything in the way of solving where the maps lead to, or what may be there, so I have pretty much ignored them. That may have been a big mistake on my part and if it was, I am confident that you will be the one to figure out the signifigance of them and enlighten us all. (Hopefully) Jim
To anyone who can answer
Christopher
Mesa, Az
Since the people from Spain uesd alot of symbols and things like that has anyone ever thought of this....Maybe the way these maps were found are some sot of symbol itself.The priest map was found sticking "out" of the ground , symbolizing a specific mountain in the superstitions.The Trail map was found "even" with the ground ,with the word Don ,maybe meaning some person of intrest has walked the trail,or even the burial of someone important is in the ground.The other half of trail with heart shape cut out was found buried in the ground maybe meaning,The heart of the land is in the earth itself,the second half of the trail is hidden underneath the visible trail we come to know today.Has anyone ever taken the Original Stones Back to their "Finding Place" and tried to read them from there.I believe it might show something or at least give us a better idea of what we should see.If ther is anyone who might have pictures of these maps dating in the 50's or 60's,meanig if you took picture in the 50's or 60's of these maps and are willing to share that info,that would be great ,Thanks for reading....
Do the Stones apply to LDM
Mr.Hatt read your article and its simply amazing. I honestly believe you feel like you are on to something. How many of the the dutchman clues do you feel are legit and not add ons pasted down through others in history. Also I never heard of the story about bill findings the latin hearts outside of your article.How could I find that and read up on it...Thanks
Reply to: Do the Stones apply to LDM Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Since this article was written, I have confirmed that the man who found the Latin Heart was named Bill HIDDEN. (Not Hinton). At the time the article was written, I was sure that Al Reser had told me that his name was Hidden, but for years I could never verify that a Bill Hidden ever existed. During a conversation with Ron Feldman, Ron said he knew of a wrangler that used to work for another stable in Apache Junction named Bill Hinton. The name Hinton turned out to be a dead end, but eventually I verified some historical information about BILL HIDDEN. Bill Hidden was a Prospector that spent many years in the Superstitions in search of the Lost Dutchman and Peralta mines. According to an article printed on March 30th 1993 in the Arizona Territorial (page 10) Bill Hidden held 28 mining claims and maintained a camp in La Barge canyon near Coffee Flat Mtn. He claimed to have found 6 of the Peralta mines. Additional information about Mr. Hidden and the Latin Heart is scarce, but if it does exist, it would most likely be found in the Rick Peck collection now held by the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Sadly, I found out too late that Rick had an intense interest in the Latin Heart, and he was gone before I could discuss the subject with him. Re: your statement above. . . I honestly believe you feel like you are on to something. Those words vindicate my original purpose for publishing the Booklet and article above. It was never my intention to convince anyone that the Stone maps, Stone Crosses and Latin Heart are authentic. My only intention was to go on the record and make it clear that I am convinced that they are all authentic. I would not have gone that far out on a limb, without having seen physical evidence with my own eyes that supported that belief. I have no quarrel with anyone that believes they are fakes, nor will I make any attempt to convince them otherwise. The physical evidence that supports their authenticity, is out in the mountains for anyone to find, the same way I found it. All the information provided in the article above, is the truth as I know it, as a result of nearly 20 years of research and dedicated field work. To anyone that doesnt believe it, Im OK with that, just remember where you read it. . . re: your question; How many of the the dutchman clues do you feel are legit and not add ons pasted down through others in history. I personally feel that the vast majority of the clues are legit! The problem is, they do not all pertain to the LDM. I believe that there are 8 Peralta or Mexican or possibly even Jesuit mines shown on the Stone Maps, plus several more shown on the Stone Crosses and Latin heart. Each one of these mines has its own set of legitimate clues/landmarks, coming from Mexican and Native American sources. The challenge is to separate these clues and determine which mines (locations) they pertain to and which one of these is the one we have come to know as the LDM. Hope that answers your questions. . . Busca El Coazon Jim Hatt
You have the knowledge and thats the KEY
Let me go on record by saying," I believe they are Authentic" and are over 100 years old, and they do show detailed landmarks in the area.Mr. Hatt you contain something that I havent felt since I was a child, and that is The Art of Story Telling. And I mean that in a VERY RESPECTFUL way sir. I mean reading that article made me feel like a child listing to one of my grandpa's life stories again,thanks for that...I think thats why you can spark up so many responses and questions to what you say.I think I understand what your saying about the clues ,basically Waltz himself may have discovered clues left behind from indians and so forth, and simply added on from there. One thing that confuses me ,on the horse map,and I hope im not opening a can of worms.If you and I were looking at a real life horse in the same position as seen on that Horse map, we would Not beable to see the butt crack of the horse as displayed on the map.The Tail is in the wrong place as well,my heart says that is purposely done or showing a undetectable meaning outside of the person or people who created these maps.What do you think Sir? Busca El Mapa
Reply to: You have the knowledge and thats the KEY Jim Hatt
Apache Junction
You wrote: "Let me go on record by saying," I believe they are Authentic" and are over 100 years old, and they do show detailed landmarks in the area"........ Before we continue. . . Would you mind leveling the playing field here, and putting your name and contact information (in the way of a return e-mail address and location) on your posts? It is one thing to say "I BELIEVE" and something entirely different to say "I BELIEVE" and put your name on it as I did. A serious discussion deserves total accountability. Without that, the floodgates open to all the Blindbowmen out there and I have just about had my fill of them. Jim Hatt
Im really confused as to what a blindbowmen is or does in life ,sounds like you may have had trouble with them in the past.I not looking for trouble, I see you take this matter seriously.You wrote: A serious discussion deserves total accountability.Busca El Mapa Mr.Hatt
the blindbowman
you may want to watch what you say to me jim ,i can prove the stones were made by a priest at tayopa around 1595-1609 ..by the same priest that made the treasure trove list of tayopa sealed in 1647 and if you talk down to me again ,i will soon be showing what the stones locate , the secerd site of chicomoztoc ,and yes i am requesting a tresure trove premit for this sitefrom the NFS ... and yes i do have real evidence to back up this clam ..you are way off corse ...apolgize or i will make you eat your words ...
Reply to: Elijah Wright Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Elijah, Look below your post and you will get an idea of who the blindbowman is. Or just scroll back through the posts, and see his madness for yourself. Initially I had high hopes for his knowledge as a navigator, but I soon realized he was just an "Old Hippie" that can't let go of the old and grab on to the new. Every thing he says (In my opinion) is just the result of a drug induced fantasy. He shows up all over the Internet using dozens of different names, and sometimes above, he uses no name at all. Lets just sit back and watch how he shows what the stone locate, to make me eat my words. NOT!!
Reply to: Elijah Wright Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Elijah, your email name & address elijah.wright@ymail.com was created on 9-10-08 with a blank profile. Are you creating a phony name to go "ON THE RECORD" with? Is it possible you have come at me before using the ID of Ray Tucker, Ward or Redison? I am a little sharper these days than I was back then. Why don't you and the blindbowman have a conversation among yourselves. I have a feeling you two will get along very well.
we will see jester ! ...lol
Re;To Jim Hatt
Elijah Wright aka(Elijah Wright)
Paradise Valley,Az
Mr Hatt I am not ray tucker, ward ,redison,or the blindbowmen.I am Elijah Wright,a 27 year old African American male,remember, you Sir, asked for my contact info.I am a little old school when it comes contacting someone,I do It by phone or sending a letter through the post office. I created this email address today simply cause you wanted me to "level the playing field"I didnt have an Email or have an intrest in having one until you asked for so sort of contact info, and didnt feel comfotable with putting personal info on here(No Disrespect to anyone). As to the blindbowmen or anyone else,I dont know what happened or what went wrong between you all,like I said before I dont want any trouble and plan to keep it that way.I read your story and was interested to learn more, I was not expecting the author of the story to contact me, let alone ask for my personal info. I simply made an observation ,I saw something that wasnt correct and offered my personal opinion on that .I apologize, maybe commenting was a bad idea on my part. Mr.Hatt I scrolled through the comments like you said, I didnt see anyone with the id ray tucker,ward or redison,Theres plenty from blindbowmen but If you look at his tex compared to mine, Im just going to say, Im not either of those people.REMEMBER MR.HATT, YOU asked for my contact info, I was fine just the way we were,I didnt click on your email link ,just asked a question....Mr. Hatt its not right to fault everyone in the future for someones mistakes in the past.A GREAT STORY TELLER as yourself,just seems alot better that that,I kind of disappointed now. I hope my NONE of my words offened you in anyway Mr. Hatt and you probably wont respond,I have just one more question. when you say: "Go on Record", what do you mean Sir...Busca el Mapa
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept your explanation that you are not who I suspected you were, and offer you my apologies. "ON THE RECORD" for future info. means you take a stand on an issue, and put your name on it. You can not go "ON THE RECORD" anonymously. Since you were posting that you wanted to go on the record, but were making anonymous posts, you looked pretty silly.
Apologies to Mr .Hatt Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
I now realize my words may come off a little harsh and mean,and I do apologize for that Mr.Hatt,sometimes I say what I feel and I can cross the line at times . I was a little upset for being accused of being someone else or simply trying to play games.Thats not me nor my style.I appreciate you taking the time to respond to questions and help us who truely BELIEVE in these Stones and their AUTHENTICITY. To any new comers wanting knowledge about these maps, you are in the right place for the answers you seek.I have been around horses for over 10 years now and I know for certain the butt crack and tail on that horse are not in the proper places.I dont know where these Stones lead too, but im am 100% sure that tail and butt crack are off by a long shot,Ive read all of the messages on here and nobody mentions anything about that. If its considered a SERIOUS DISCUSSION by the author, the newcomers should pay attention and look into it as well as myself. I you read these message as I was told,you will find out 1 simple thing, The Southwest ,especially ARIZONA, is a Hell of a Place to Be....Learn about this area,it will keep you Busy, just ask Jim Hatt.And to Mr Hatt, once again THANKS again for making me feel like a kid again, and I truely mean that,outside of 80's music, reading your story has sparked the intrest and changed the conversation between everyone in this household. Thank you once again Mr Hatt...Elijah....Busca el Mapa
You are a good sport Elijah, and again I apologize for misunderstanding you. Now about the horses rump and tail. You are of course correct in your observation, but I do not believe it is important towards solving the stone maps. I believe the horse is merely symbolic. It has no more meaning than an Arizona Diamondback cap that you might wear on your head if you like the Diamondbacks. Whom ever made the maps or commissioned them to be made liked horses. There is a clue there. During Father Kino's time, the Jesuits all rode mules or burros. . . Except Kino! He was well known for being a Horseman. To carry on the thought of the horse being symbolic, look at the Priest on the other side of the horse map. This too is symbolic. What the Priest actually represents is a four stone monument that actually stands out in the mountains. The figure of the Priest is pointing the way with a cross. From the four stone monument, you go the way the Priest is pointing to get to the caches. Notice how the circles the Priest is pointing at are different than the circles on the horse map. The horse map circles represent mines, The Priest map circles represent caches. Send me an e-mail and I will reply and attach a photo of that monument. ~Busca El Coazon~
Your Email link is not working Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Good morning Mr Hatt, I tried clicking on the email link posted with your name, and I tried to send and email to that address through my ymail account and they both didnt work.When I go through yahoo it says it cannot find your email.If theres a way you can fix it or just send me an email directly to my account,(like a tester email)and we can go from there.Im going to do research on Kino, but it makes sense,that would explain why the Horse is so perfectly sketched into that stone.
Question about the Latin Heart
Ellen
CA
Mr. Hatt - Can you please clear up some confusion I'm having with information/pictures in your article (above)? In the photograph of the "Heart Map," it shows a heart-shaped cutout in the stone map and also a separate heart-shaped piece sitting below it. It looks like the heart-shaped piece fits into the cutout in the stone map to complete the markings on it. Then, further down in your article, you talk about "The Latin Heart" and that it has Latin words on the front side and symbols, that appear to be Roman numerals, on the back side. Is "The Latin Heart" a completely different piece then the heart-shaped piece shown sitting below the picture of the "Heart Map?" I'm thinking that it is, since there are only drawings of "The Latin Heart," but I'm confused as to how they relate (if they do) to each other as pieces of the puzzle. Thank you in advance for your reply.
Correction to above question
Ellen
CA
I mistakenly referred to your article as "above" when the question I asked was regarding information in your article entitled "The Peralta Stone Maps, The Stone Crosses & The Latin Heart" at another link within this website. I really should have posted my question below that article, so I apologize.
You7 did not make a mistake when you replied. I have several articles on this website. Two of them are related to the stone Maps. The articles were linked together by the webmaster of the Desert USA website. A post made in response to either article appears on both. It does get confusing at times when referring to the "above" article. I get a lot of e-mail complaints about that, but it is beyond my control to fix. RE: The two hearts; They are two separate heart shaped stones. The first one has the end of the trail with 18 dots on it. When the end of that trail is reached, the first heart is removed and the second heart (containing the Latin words) in placed in the heart shaped cavity on it's place. There is an important reason for this. It gives you the proper orientation of the heart landmarks with respect to the geography around it in the field. ~Busca El Coazon~ Jim Hatt
the blindbowman
ya ,what he is saying is he is so defensive he drives good folks like your self away from the site ..
you go ahead and speak any time you want , this is a free country and jim dont run this site even if he thinks he dose .. and i sure would not place all my faith in his hands ....he thinks he knows more then anyone else and he is about to find out he dosent ... lol
you both take care even if i dont agree with jim dosent mean i dont under stand his greed ...lol latter
To elijah of arizona
ken
Washington
you made an excellent point so good that the writer accepts it and responds.do you know who made these stones or have a good idea of who made them.
To Ken in Washington
Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
To be honest with you I dont know who made these maps,I wish I did ,but I dont . Only thing I can say is ask the author,He has alot more KNOWLEDGE when it comes to these Maps , I wanna know just a much you if not more than you. Also you have to do research ,Im starting, if you want to know more, reading a few books would not hurt either.Good luck to you and your search. Elijah
Whats Going on
truth seeker
U.S.A.
Can someone give any truth to this matter,it seems like a bunch of lies and misleading points here, the last 7 to 8 comments seem to be on to something and then they just stop. What Happened,keep us posted if some new discovery has been made guys,if you live in Arizona and have the privilage to go on that trail, please let us know .
Personal Opinion on Jesuit Maps
azmula
Glendale, AZ
Elijah Wright,
Here a few notes on the Stone Maps. They are miss titled as Peralta, the Peralta Family had nothing to do with the creation of the stone maps. The maps were not found in the desert as has been claimed. The maps were created in Arizpe, Sonora and were found buried in the mission there in Arizpe. While they were being transported they were stolen and brought to Texas. When the maps existence became known they were in the possession of the grand son of Pegleg Tumlinson a well known treasure hunter from Texas. Kino will make some good reading, but no emphasis on treasure. A side note, most of the books written about this time frame are written by Jesuit scholars. The Catholic does not allow there scholars to publish without censorship. I would suggest researching the Jesuit Priests and the missions of the 18th century period and a few other classic books by non-Jesuits. Please realize that the Jesuits are scholars in various fields and very honest men. They are just under the thumb of the church.
The maps have nothing to do with the Lost Dutchman Mine.
azmula
Re: to azmula
Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Acutally I have been doing alot of research on everything, you could be right about the the LDM not being involved with the stone set.Now where they were found ,I read of a 2 piece map being stolen from Arizpe not a 3 piece map , there are 3 in the peralta set, if the peralta's didnt make or as you say; " Have nothing to do with the creation", how do you explain the names Miguel and Pedro being on the set, the Peralta's walked that same trail, I dont know who made them. I you dont mind me asking,what do you think the correct name should be for this 3 piece set.Elijah
One more thing azmula Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
You say the jesuits are very honest men, have you heard about the "Babington Plot" not All jesuits are Honest people
Jesuit Map Reply
azmula
Glendale, AZ
(Personal Opinion on Jesuit Maps)I have only been seriously researching the maps for maybe 15+ years in the mountains, Mexico, and various libraries about the world. There are as many opinions about the maps as there researchers on the subject. Varing opinions helps to bring out more facts. Interesting newspaper article that identified only 3 maps found in the Arizpe Mission. The one I found did not mention a quantity. However,your article falls in line with many opinions about there being only 2 main maps + the heart per the first photo of the two sitting on the car bumper.
I have read many negative articles about the Jesuits but none have swayed my opinion of them or the "church".
azmula
AZMULA
Roger Akin
Dallas,TX
Azmula, i have seen a several of your comments about the stones on a number of different internet sites. Some of your claims seem to be a long ways from the center. I was just wondering, in all of your years of research, have you ever come up with any real evidence that you can use to support your positions or are you basing your opinions on legends and hearsay? I am also curious about why you always sign your posts with an alias? Some of us might like to do a little research on you in order to make a decision for ourselves how much creditability to afford to your comments. One of the things that impressed me most about Mr. Hatts article above was the way he provided all the sources for his information and allows his readers to form their own conclusions. I think Mr. Hatts creditability on the subject is well known and impeccable. In all honesty, I don't see how anyone could take your comments seriously when they are made anonymously. People might take you more seriously if you quit playing the man behind the curtain who knows everything, and came out where we can see you. What is your professional background? What separates you (if anything) from the average LDM NUT-Case? Seems it would be important for you to establish yourself in this way before contradicting anyone. I was in full agreement with Mr. Hatt above when he challenged Elijah for his anonymous posts. Elijah responded in an open and honest manner, and provided his real name and contact information. If you want to challenge the author, or anyone else's posts, it would only seem right for you to provide your sources of information and put your name on the bottom of it. (Just my opinion)
I just happened to notice that you didn't provide any contact info with your post either. Anonymous flattery is about as useless as anonymous criticism. Perhaps it was an over site that will be corrected with your next post? Although there are people that I am suspicious of when they post anonymously or with an alias, Azmula is not one one of them. I appreciate you desire to help me moderate this discussion, but I prefer you leave it to me. Jim
I finally understand why you wanted to know more about me , I have to be honest, anybody can put any name and say whatever they want. Here is a suggestion,why dont the creators of this wesite find a program or something to monitor how many login names come from the same computer. Almost like what EBAY does, ebay has to do that to prevent a thing they call " Shill Bidding".EXAMPLE: If someone decides to sell something and wants it to sell at a high price, they create a second account to bid from to jack up the price against other bidders,ebay sees that they are coming from the same computer and puts a stop to it.Apply that same method to here, so No matter What,if you login from the same computer,something records that login and list all the login names that come from that computer. Another option,make people pay or suscribe to this website. Time is money and that would also eliminate those who like to waste time.I have to be honest, I thought Azmula was a little SUSPECT Jim, so I do apologize to you Azmula for being alittle harsh to you in past comments, and for the most part the Jesuits are honest people and deserve alot more credit than given,a few bad apples should not spoil the bunch
I tend to disagree with both you and Azmula about how many pieces there are to the stone map set. Counting the stone crosses and the Latin Heart, there are 7 pieces in the set, and possibly even 8 with the last one waiting to be found. Just because they were found in different places, at different times, by different people, does not mean that they were not all together at one time. The story about the maps being found in Mexico and the Peg Leg connection has been around a long time. It was introduced a few years ago as new information, but the first time I saw it was in an article in Frontier Times May 1973 by Jack and Bernice McGee. The article introduces a lot of "NEW" information concerning the stone maps, but most of it can be quickly dismissed, and the rest filed under "opinions" of the authors. Here is a paragraph taken from the article as they attempt to describe the Priest Map in the article: "On it's reverse side (Talking about the horse map) is a second list of distorted Spanish, engraved beside an equally distorted, long-haired human of undetermined sex. The figure wears a long skirt, a tall hat, and has been labeled a "priest." Partially exposed beneath his long robe is a tiered pedestal on which he is standing. Its base tier is inscribed 1847! From the priest's hand a church-cross is held extended like a fishing pole. Dangling beneath is a back-lashed line of charm bracelet rejects-crescents, crosses, day-old doughnuts, a few numerals, and a small heart" . . . . . . The whole article rambles along like that. The article does a lot of speculating, with the authors opinions presented as facts. It's certainly not anything a historian or serious researcher would quote from as an historical reference.
I know where the Threasure of Hat Mountain and The Treasure of Santa Fe is Scott
Texas
Yeah, I know I sound like a nut or someone trying to " scam " or sell something that's not real. But I do know where the The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe and The Cave of Hat Mountain. is. I have been to the site back in 1993 after finding a map and a hand written jornal written by a Don Miguel Sarosa that was also a hand written books of the bible dated 1749. Don Sarosa was a Jesuit Priest that was apart of a large gold moving expo from the mines carring 200 burro loads of gold South towards San Angelo when they was attacked by Apache Indians.
Anyways, I found the book and map in an old tracer mine tunnel that was half walled over with adobe brick while doing some placer panning. Corse anyone knows back in 1993 Arizona was having the worst flooding in record and gold hunting was great then. Not going into details here, cause for one, I don't want someone else knowing where it is. Second, I own the claim and mineral rights on the location.
But, am looking for people interested in helping me go after it. I am looking for partners, but not trying to scam people here. I also know of 3 other sites that could hold treasure. But the one I have been to I know forsure by the landmarks from the map and the book and there is a cave that has been blasted shut, but has two mine shafts going straight down further up from the entrance that was also blasted shut.
Anyways, if interested leave me a message on my email at Silverwolfspirit_0410@yahoo.com
The Cave of Hat Mountain Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Hello Scott. I do believe, that YOU BELIEVE you know where the The Cave of Hat Mountain is, but all the information I have on the subject, leads me to believe that it is within an area that is closed to mining and the filing of all forms of mining claims. Since you say you have a mining claim in the area where you think the "Cave" is, I have serious doubts about it being the correct cave. Your map sounds interesting and may eventually lead you to something equally significant as the Cave of Hat Mountain, but I would suggest that you try to keep an open mind about what it is until you have uncovered it. Jim
To Jim Hatt,
Well, as with anything unless one has physical proof of something, there will always be skeptics. I do agree with that. But with the book and the map I have, there is beyond a doubt enough proof to convince anyone. Not only did I find the book and map in the iron chest they was help within, but also a 20.8 pound gold bar shaped in a cross that was marked with a heart in the center and the witch on one of the Peralta maps. One thing about the Witch Map. Some say it depects Penical Peak or ( Picacho ) peak as the Spanish was well known for calling it. But in fact the " Witch " on that map is acctually Red Mountain. Or " Red Preist Mountain or Peters De Colorado's " And Red Mountain is the stone used to carve the Peralta maps. I can take you and show you a carving on Red Priest Mountain where the Heart and Cross are conjoined just the same as on the maps. Which is one of the main landmarks from the map and jornal I have. The map and jornal are what is known as a " Key Map " joining everything together, meaning the Peralta Maps included.
Penical Peak was known as " The Needle " or the " Eye of the Needle " because right at the tip of the point of the peak, seen in the right place, is exactly a crack that looks like the eye of a needle. Which is also one of the main landmarks from the maps. The Dagger on the Peralta Trails map with the Heart is the reprasintation of Penical Peak. For the big " D " on the hilt is the " Eye of the Needle ". And again the map I have ties it all together, as well as many other landmarks I don't want to get into.
Anyways, I hope this will show you I do know alot about the maps as well as the landmarks used, and shows some proof of what I say.
If you would like to discuse more on this issue, please feel free to send me an email to Silverwolfspirit_0410@yahoo.com or send me an instant message to the same screen name on yahoo messenger.
Thank you for your time
The Cave of Hat Mountain Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Good morning Scott, Like I said earlier. Your map sounds interesting and may eventually lead you to something equally significant as the Cave of Hat Mountain. It may even be closely associated with it as far as being an old Jesuit cache site, but I still have major doubts that it is the location referred to on Bilbrey's Stone Crosses. On the other side of the coin, just as I suggested for you, I must remain open minded until the last stone is turned. Old Jesuit books containing maps seem to becoming more and more common these days. Yours is not the first to come to my attention. Still, nothing changes a man's mind and leads him to abandon long held beliefs, quicker than something like a 20.8 pound gold bar in the shape of a cross. If you have an photos that would not give away the location, I would love to see them. You can e-mail them to: arizona_drifter@yahoo.com and you have my word that they will not be circulated or shared with anyone else without your permission. Jim Hatt
I guess my 1st question to you would be , is your Map made of Stone, 2nd have you actually been to Pinnacle Peak , thats way out of the range of where these maps lead too, im not saying you dont have a map, but your map would have to be consistent with location of the church of santa fe, and there is No old Jesuit church ruins in that mountain range. Pinnacle Peck is in my neck of the woods,I eaten at the Sassi resturant, thats an 18 million dollar resturant built into the base of Pinnacle Peak. Scott , that mountain is too far, your talking an hour an 15 min drive in a car at the minimum. Next time im in that area I will have to pay closer attenion, and look for Jesuit signs,if any are there.MY 3rd and final question is this: If you found cave of Hat mountain , What did Rojas leave behind to Ensure it was his,it can be described in 4 letters and was ment to be seen for many miles. Pinacle Peak sounds like a good location to any who has never been to AZ and can only read and research this area,its just to far.TONTO NATIONAL FOREST , theres a clue there, find out why that place is CLOSED off and maybe you find the Church that leads to the Cave
What happened to roger akin
Truth seeker
Is it possible that Scott and Roger Akin are the same person,they are both in Texas.........
First of all, no I'm not the same person as Roger Akin. Second, Yes I have been to Pinnacle Peak many times. Long before that resturaunt was built back when there were hardly any buildings in the area around Pinnacle Peak. I lived in New River and Tempe for about 6 years, so I know the locations, old Spanish landmarks and all well. Thirdly, people have it all wrong when they believe that the Peralta mines and the associatted treasures are buried in the Superstition Mountains. Back when the Spanish mined Arizona, they never called the Superstition Mountains we know of today that. The called them the " Rio Salado Montana's " or " The Salt River Mountains " Plus, for the past 150 years no gold of any worth has ever been found in that range. The Superstition Mountains of the time when the Spanish mined the area are now know as the McDowell Mountains. The Apache of the time believed the Mountain Ranges sacred to the Thunder God and all gold found in that area also sacred. I own claims to many mines in and around the McDowells, many old Spanish mines. In one mine I was cleaning out, a shaft, I found three human skeletons buried there. One had an Iron arrowhead inbedded into it's skull. The Apache's at those times always killed any miners found in those Mountains and buried thier remains within the mines to cover any traces. The McDowell Mountains holds alot of the landmarks inscribed on the Peralta Maps. So, Pinnacle Peak was one of the major landmarks used during those times. I even have a picture of Pinnacle Peak showing the " Eye of the Needle " it isn't hard to find. Just drive looking North at the top of the peak, and you will see the eye that is a large crack at the top of the spire of rocks forming the top. Also, I know alot of the landmarks that the Peralta Maps show. Like the " El Cablo de Santa Fe " on the " Horse of Santa Fe " map. I know of where there is a rock outcrop that has the Horse and the same desings as on the map carved on it. As like I stated that Red Mountain which was know by the Spanish as the " Red Priest Mountain " or " Peters de Calorado's " becase if you look at the Mountain right it looks like a Priest kneeling holding a cross outwards. Just like the " Witch " on the other Peralta Map. And like I stated I can take anyone who wants to see it to Red Priest Mountain and show them a carving of the Heart and the Cross conjoined together. Also the stone used to carve the Peralta Maps is the same stone found on and around Red Priest Mountain. Also, the map I have isn't made of stone, it is made from hide. The Jornal is about the size of a paperback book or alittle bigger. Covered with vellom on wood, and the pages are also vellom. I do have pics of the gold cross and will email one to you Jim here soon. Anyways, there are a ton of landmarks that are used in both the map and the Peralta Stones. on my Map, Four Peaks is one of the key landmarks used. Anyways, I hope I answered your questions and if you have any others, please feel free to ask. Like I stated I am trying to find partners in this venture. I did have one in the past, but sadly he died of a heartattack. Plus, I am here in Texas stuck with so much info and a treasure to be found. But still trying to get this off the ground. Thanks for your time
Scott, I like your enthusiasm! I believe it was Jay Fraser that also believed the stone maps applied to that area. I have some e-mail correspondence from him somewhere. I will have to go over it again and compare his thoughts to yours. I am pretty much convinced that the stone maps apply to the Superstitions, but I don't have any gold in my pouch to prove it, so it is just my opinion. The bottom line is, and has always been: "Who ever finds the gold wins" right? I am looking forward to seeing some of your photos. Jim
Are you talking about the Mcdowell mountains right by the Zoo, those mountain have all kinds of crazy rock formations throughout that area, actually the northside of that area is all fenced off.And the are in red mountain you speak of I believe is the part of the mountain that faces east tempe and mesa.I never been in the superstitions, but I have been to both locations you talk of many times simply cause they are alot closer to where I live. Well Scott,I hope you are right and Im glad too see you actually lived here, the beautiful weather is right around the corner and I know you miss that.Elijah
One more question Scott Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Whats wrong Scott ,you dont miss the weather.The mercury levels are high and the wind is blowing from the east.Why are you in Texas and Not Arizona, if I found a 20 pound cross a map and a journal in Arizona ,I wouldnt you be stuck in Texas, and why are you STUCK in Texas, a greyhound bus ticket is still $98 dollars ,2 weeks in advance , and a days ride. GreyHound seems to be the only company that wasnt effected by todays economy, and your stuck in Texas with a 20 pound gold cross and a map. I do like the fact that you caused me to expand my mind, my area of thought has opened up to all these mountain ranges in Arizona, I look at some of these mountains and wonder How the Hell did that happen,now I going to ask more about these places. Im just saying and not trying to upset you or discredit, I have 5 kids and im still able to travel anywhere I want in the North America an definitly the United States and Im not even close to 30 years old. Outside of taking care of a sick family member, NOTHING would keep me stuck in one place, especially if I had a Gold Cross and a Treasure Map. Your a Treasure Hunter and Greed keeps you going, well let me tell you something, GOLD is not the only treasure in todays Society. I took money I made from Producing music and invested in a House within 1 year I was $110,000 dollars richer,that is treasure to me,especially if you knew the neigborhood I grew up in. I came across an error currency note that gains intrest everyday, that a treasure. The one thing I figured out about being here is If your broke and dont have money you tend to know where everything is and you may have become another BLINDBOWMEN, if you have some money and your Net worth consist of 6 zeros or more, Gold isnt really mentioned and they dont claim to know where it is,or tell anyone about the Gold they Found. If I never find what these stones lead too,Im happy, I have found lots of hidden treasures in my life................Elijah Wright
Why is Scott in Texas? Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Elijah, I sort of asked Scott the same thing in an e-mail. Although he didn't mention any family illnesses, there are family issues that I can understand. As many treasure hunters know well, you can spend years walking back and forth over the same ground, right top of a buried treasure or vein of gold, without ever figuring out exactly where to put the pick & shovel. Even tho you know it's right there somewhere. That does not pay very well and when you have people depending on you for a roof over their heads and something to eat, the reality of financial responsibilities overcomes that of personal desires. Tell ya what Scott; If you really have a map, you send it to me and Elijah. We will work it to a conclusion, and if we find The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe using it we will ship 1/3 of it to you. Sound fair? You agree Elijah?
I do see a Heart in the Middle Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
The picture of the Cross you sent Scott does appear to have a heart in the middle and some sort of drawing at the top but I cant make it out,do you have better pictures to show what it is,or was that done on purpose.Im convinced you might be on to something,and it may be the treasure of Santa fe,I would be honored to work it with you guys, I know I may have bad mouthed Scott a little and may not be deserving of 1/3,whatever you and Scott decide to give me I am blessed to have....P.S..Scott I hope you truely accept my apologies and still would consider me a partner in this hunt,look at it like this ,if we do find it you wont have to worry about being stuck in Texas, you can move them wherever they want,maybe even back to Az..Well I hope you do forgive me once again......Elijah
1/3 of the Treasure of the Church of Sante Fe Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
TIKES! Look what I have started now! Guess I will have to be more careful in what I propose. Elijah, I was pulling his leg with that little blurb at the end of my last message.
Is cool, sorry for not responding back till now, been busy. Is cool about being questionable of the authentisity of things. I know dealing with something of this nature can raise alot of doubts. I mean, The Church of Santa Fe Treasure could be one of the largest land-based treasure finds in record. Anyways, glad you can see the marking on the cross. On the top is stamped the " Witch " from the Priest Map and in the middle is a Heart. On the bottom is a V and Cross, which are the symbols of the Jesuit Church. The pic is a Photo-Copy made back in 1993. As you know, copiers wasn't the greatest back then as they are now. As far as sending you guys the map, all I have to do is tell you the location and how to find the cave. If you knew how simple all the maps tie into one another, you would be amazed. And about being partners, sure am cool with it. Is something we would have to discuss in detail and draw up contracts and agreements. Anyways, drop me a message and let me know when would be the best time to work things out and I can e-mail back my phone number.
Enoush is Enough Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I'm sorry Scott but my blurb about a partnership was "tongue in cheek". I never expected you or anyone else to take it seriously. My first impression was that your whole story was a fantasy, and it went steadily downhill from there. I tried to remain open minded and said I would take a look at your photos. I looked at what you provided, and I was not impressed. What ever your game is, it is over, and the casual readers of this discussion "hopefully" have learned something about the "Games" that are played every day in the world of treasure & lost mine hunting. If any of them wish to continue this discussion with you here, or contact you by e-mail and continue it, it is fine with me, but I would advise them to keep it on a level of "For Entertainment Only".
You are more then entitled to your own opinion Jim, but there is no " Game " involved with this. I have asked for no money from anyone. I am not seeking anything from anyone, just people who would be willing to invest some of thier time to become involved in what I know is to be there and have shown proof that I am honest and know what I am talking about. Sounds like to me you are a slight bit jealous?? You spending years in your own search and research, then someone comes along with proof and knowledge of something you have seeked and failed at for years. Sound like jealousy to me. Or maybe you just like being a prick?? Who knows, nor do I care to be honest. I have real physical proof that there is something buried of intrest involving the map, cross and jornal. I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else, nor do I have to please you in any way. Like I stated. I have asked for no money, not looking to " scam " anyone. I showed you proof of what I could find at the time. If I were to send you picks of the cross, map and jornal, then it would give away alot of information I don't wish to share with anyone unless they are into becoming partners. So, I say to you in closing, as I stated to you before Sir, believe what you want. Cause I could care less. And when I am the one who finds whatever is buried at the location at the end of the map, then I will be sure to rub your face in it.
Enough is Enough Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I'm sorry Scott, I have had many many people tell me that they have the stone maps all figured out. I don't claim to have them all figured out myself, but I do know enough about them to know when someone hasn't even started to figure them out yet. I told you in the very beginning that I didn't think you were even close to the Cave of Hat Mountain, and hat from what you described, I thought that you might be onto something else equally important. But, that was before you sent me your evidence. I listened to your story and I looked at your "Evidence". You asked for my opinion and I gave it to you. If you don't like my reply, you can go to another discussion and try your luck there. Good Luck in your search.
Is cool, I think you are just another person who spent most of their life searching in the wrong spot, and can't face facts someone else might know more then you, or might actually know what they are talking about and has proof to back it up. You are what, in your mid 60's?? Just another dried up old man who wasted their life living on a dream, and can't face the fact that someone else might actually have something. You gave up what, 20 years of your life chasing shadows?? Must be living on your Social Security about now. While someone like myself comes along who has still more years of life left and has proof a treasure exsists. I never told you which mountain I thought Hat mountain was. You automatically assumed I was wrong. Anyways, in my humble opinion you are full of shit. But that's my opioion and I will stick to it. Peace
Enoush is Enough Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
You can't even get your own story right. You'll never figure out mine.
LOL sxxk axx, eat shit and xxx is all I have to say to your last comment. In the end, we shall see who is right when whoever finds the gold first. There are 5 hidden stashes of gold, and one was found in the 80's. While you spend the last of your years in a nursing home old man, I will still be fresh and out on the field looking for more after I dig up whatevers at the end of my map. And that's all I have to say about all of this. Peace
Enthusiasm, Imagination & Daydreams Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Scott, As you get a little older and a lot smarter, you will learn that, to be successful at anything requires a lot of patience and hard work. You learn to roll with the punches and from your failures. As time goes by, you become more confident in yourself and your own abilities. You also developed the ability to recognize people who lack those abilities and confidence. Enthusiasm and Imagination (which you seem to have plenty of) are prerequisites that can get you started, but it is the confidence in your own abilities that keeps you going when the going gets tough. The final element in the formula to success is EXPERIENCE. This can only be gained through patience and hard work applied over a long period of time. Time that is actually spent in pursuit of your goal. Time spent sitting back daydreaming about it does not count. Anyone following this discussion can plainly see that you are completely stumped. If you really have a map, (which I seriously doubt) you have no idea how to use it or where it leads to. If you did, you would not have relocated yourself so far away from it. You lost confidence in your own abilities and you walked away from it. In doing so, you forfeited the chance to gain more experience. Now you are back to where you started with nothing but enthusiasm and imagination. You can convince yourself that you have the advantage over the old timers in the business, but you will never convince anyone else, and until you actually have some hard evidence that backs up your enthusiasm and imagination, I doubt that you will ever find the partners you seek. You have completely eliminated any possibility of making any connection with potential partners that follow the discussions on this site, by showing everyone the kind of childish behavior you resort to when you are challenged. I would wish you luck in your search, but since you are not actively pursuing it, and are just daydreaming about it, it seems pointless.
Scott and Blind bowmen Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
If you scroll up and look at the last post from the blindbowmen,and look at scotts last couple of post, they are alot of similarites,in the script in their messages.I cant remember who posted : Is roger and scott the same person:Roger hasnt replied since,and scott has taken over with messages to Jim.Responses like,"I make you eat you words" and "I'll rub it in your face" lead me to believe that Scott could be the Blindbowmen!!!!!!!!!!!or they are very close to each other. You have crossed the line scott!!!!!What good is a "Typed Threat" You got mad because Jim pointed out your inaccurate points,in your so called Treasure Map And Gold Cross.And if you ever had that cross, you Sold it,just like you are trying to sell your story NOW. And about that cross, its just as useless as your "Threats" on this website.You claimed to have a 20.8 Gold cross and then I found out you really had pictures of a supposed Gold cross,(It looks more like Silver).If that cross is really 4 inches thick like you said it is ,you would beable to see that thickness in the sides.4 inches is pretty thick.For someone who claims they were "Homeless" sure doesnt know when to count their blessings.One day You will get old just like I will. Jim might be old, but he climbs MOUNTAINS,all the time, and "YOU" said he's old(just making sure I have your STORY Straight)..You might want to pray to God tonight and ask him for that kind of Health when you get "OLD"..If you are a Man of your word hopefully that will be your last comment, You are the 1st person on here to use foul language, what good is that,you cant take those words back.Also you are 36 years old, WOW, signs of gray hair or even BALDNESS start to set in around then. Dont be calling Nobody old when your Right around the corner.....
You're learning fast Elijah Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Elijah, Not bad for a beginner. Scott will back, you can count on that. His game plan will be the same, as will be his story except for a few revisions to fill in some of the holes and weak spots we have pointed out to him. He is just a Talker of the Talk that cant make it as a Walker of the Walk. I am not as OLD as he thinks, but if we were to point out and correct every error in his story, he might be able to fabricate a pretty good one and actually fool someone with it. Its best to let these guys fumble around in their ignorance so they are easier to spot the next time they show up.
Whatever
Scott
Texas
Is whatever, honestly I don't care what you both have to say and believe. And as far as experiance and knowledge, that's the thing, I do have have it. And that is what makes you so jealous Jim. I was friends with Bill Scovel, whom was like a second father to me and from whom I learned alot of what I know now until his death in 2005. Also, have talked to Bob Corbin and Barry Goldwater before he died. Which I am sure you know was an avid treasure hunter himself and looked for the mines. Bill and I both have talked to them about the Peralta Maps and the Mines. When I found the Map, Cross and Jornal, I showed all three to Bob Corbin and even he said that I am on to something big. So, like I stated before. I can " Talk the talk and walk the walk " and in the end, all will be proven. Also, the pic of the cross you both seen was a PHOTO-COPY. Hello, you can't tell if something is gold, silver or even copper from a PHOTO-COPY. I mean, it doesn't take rocket sience to figure that one out. Maybe I should of expained it to you both in crayon so you could understand it better. And as far as me being 36, I have the body health and looks of a 20 year old. So what now?? LOL you both are not worth my time. I already have found the thee partners I have been looking for. So, I say in closing you both can fxxx off and take a flying leap off the nearest ledge. And no, I am not this bilndbowman or whoevers. So, good luck in your chase of shadows boys, while I go get rich here in the coming months. Peace
Last Time I respond Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Good Luck to you, and hope to here about it soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I told you he would be back with a few revisions to his story. Scott, I spent a week in the mountains with Bob Corbin when we were filming the A&E documentary. Another week with him camped at Tortilla Well, and another week as a guest at his home. During those periods we discussed just about everything we considered to be significant finds that had been made in the mountains. I do not recall him ever mentioning anything about someone showing him a gold cross that had been found. Maybe it just slipped his mind? Shouldn't be to difficult to check out.
Scottbowman
Bystander
It looks to me like Scott pissed all over himself when he claimed to have shown his gold cross to Bob Corbin. That is what happens when minor league players try to bluff their way into major league games. You might as well give it up Scott. Ive known Jim Hatt a long time. It doesnt bother him at all to be called a prick by someone like you. Minor leaguers like you have been taking cheap shots at him and just about every other well know name associated with the LDM on the Internet for a long time. Those guys dont reach the legendary status they share without having some legendary achievements under their belts, and you dont make those kind achievements without developing a large degree of self-confidence. If you think that any amount of vulgarity on your part is going to convince Jim that you are anything other than a foul-mouthed Loser with a bunch of big dreams, your boat has a big hole in it. When it comes to the stone maps, you will not find a higher authority on the subject than Jim Hatt. You would be better off trying to teach religion to the Pope, than trying to convince him that you have any part of them figured out. In spite of some of your ridiculous statements early in the conversation, he was polite to you, and attempted to divert you from the direction you seemed to be heading, in order to prevent you from pissing all over yourself. You chose to ignore him, and the result is the product of your own stupidity and arrogance. I have been silently watching and waiting for him to bring out some of the Big Guns against you. Now he doesnt have to. You did it for him.
LOL Whatever
Scott
Texas
(edited) Awwww poor Jim can't fight his own battles alone. He has to have people fight them himself. That within itself proclaims him a loser and an epic failure. Nice try old man, but like I said I could care less what you or anyone else has to say. I have more importaint things to think about then droping bombs on retards and third-class wanna be's. I found the partner's I set out to look for, so I have done my job. As far as Jim and other's whipping out thier " Big Guns ". Jim started this with his lame ass asumptions, thinking he is all high and mighty and thinking he is the only expert in the history regarding the peralta maps and other maps. So, he fired the first shot. I just fired the last. None of you are worth my time and effort to prove you wrong. And you would still go on believeing what you want even if I did. So, in closing I say fuck off, drop dead and peace out. When I find what is at the end of my map and found to be right. You all can eat shit and die. Peace
Taken to seriously
ken
Washington
This guy is creating a fantasy here life here cause his real life sucks and has nothing going in it.nobody respond to this clown anymore,he has already gotten under the skin of many including some who may disagree with jim,for once we may be on the same page,this guy has no clue.your life must really suck if you have to start fights on a computer and enjoy it.he spends to much time fighting on the computer,i wonder what is wife is doing;););)if he has one.can any show us this picture of the cross he claims to have
I guess Enough is not Enough Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Scott, Do you really believe that your repeated use of vulgar language in your replies to me and other members of this discussion, is somehow going to increase the creditability of your statements? The only damage you do is to yourself by resorting to such childish behavior. The messages in this discussion are read daily by many more people than you might imagine. As a result the number of bridges you are burning reach far beyond the number of people you see openly participating in this discussion., I hope for your sake, that Scott Open is not your real name, because the vulgarity of your nature, will be the first thing that comes to everyones mind, whenever that name comes up in the future. Influential people that might have considered assisting you in one way or another in your interests and goals, will now avoid you. Friends, relatives and potential employers that Google that name (Yes, that is now a common practice by employers checking out a persons application for employment) will be directed to this website and this discussion. That may not seem important to you now, but you will probably never know how many doors will be closed to you in the future, just because of the, again. . . childish behavior you have displayed here.
Ken in Washington Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Hello Ken, I have no quarrel with people who disagree with me. Feel free to speak your mind. Unlike some people, I fully understand the value of constructive criticism. Some of my greatest discoveries have been made through intense disagreements with myself. If you scroll back and find one of Scott's messages that show his name UNDERLINED it means that he provided an e-mail address where you can e-mail him directly. I can't imagine why he would not be happy to send you a photo of his "gold cross". If for some reason he refuses or does not reply. Click on my name above and request it from me via e-mail. I will send it to you along with a copy the e-mail I received from Scott stating that he had no problem with me passing it on.
To Jim Hatt
Tom
I don't know where you get the patience to put up with some of the characters on this site. Of all the well known dutch hunters you are the only one that makes yourself directly available for this type of discussion. Try finding a place on the internet where you can post a question and get a reply from Tom Kollenborn or Clay Worst or Ron Feldman. I give you a lot of respect for making yourself available in this way, and wonder how long you will continue to take the B.S. before you also divorce yourself from this form of communication. That would be a big loss and I hope it never happens. Thank you for making the history of the latin heart and stone crosses available here. Very interesting stuff to say the least and not available anywhere else! Tom
I saw in you post the you gave your word you would not send so i assumed that you would not be able to send it. If he said you can pass it on then i would love to see it.
Ken in Washington Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Ken, here is what transpired. I received the photo from Scott. Elijah requested that I FWD'd it to him when I received it. I asked Scott if it was alright. His reply was that it was fine with him. He did NOT say "To Elijah only" or that I should ask Elijah not to pass it on to anyone. As you can tell by the messages here that followed, it wasn't a photo, but a xerox scan of something that could have been a cross or a photo of a cross. There was nothing in my communications with Scott that led me to believe that it was in any way confidential information. It actually "appeared" that he wanted it put into circulation to help in his search for partners. I have watched the discussion close for any objection from Scott about me sending it to you, and as you can see his interests are on another track. When dealing with someone as emotional as he is, it is always best to touch ALL the bases along the way if you know what I mean. My recommendation to you was to request it from him first. That is always the best thing to do in situations like this. If he declines, well... we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.................. Elijah: That is a pretty big jump from "TOM" to "TOM KOLLENBORN" I have never known Tom Kollenborn to make a post in an open discussion on any website since way back in the early 1990's when him and I were members of a phoenix website where locals gathered to talk in what they called a chat-room back then. This was not the "usual" type of online connection via the internet. It had a local dial-up phone number and was just for local people and everyone knew who everyone else was. Once the Internet began to catch on, they made the site available on the internet. New "unknown" members started signing on in massive numbers. New arguments between the old local members and the new Internet members sprung up every day. Tom and I both dropped our memberships there and never went back. To my knowledge, Tom has never signed up on or made a post another open discussion since. I do know that he does enjoy looking in on certain forums relating to the LLD now and then, when the topics are serious discussions and membership and not required to read them, because every now and then he will ask me if I saw so-&-so on a certain website........ re; The "unknown" Tom's statement a few messages back; It isn't like Tom, (or Clay & Ron for that matter) feel that they are too good for that kind of thing. It' more like they, being public figures and/or businessmen in the local community, are approached by people like Blindbowman, and Scott Open on a daily basis in the "real world" and have been for many years. It can be a difficult thing to deal with when you are standing face to face with someone that wants to challenge something or maybe even "everything" you may have voiced or written an opinion on. There is always some newcomer, looking to make a name for himself in the LDM legend, by proving that an "Old Timer" is WRONG about something. I fully understand why they avoid making statements on open discussions like this one. I, on the other hand, have very little, (by comparison) in the way of published information out there for anyone to attack me on, and it is, with the exception of "Jenkins' Lost Lode" applicable only to the stone maps. Those maps inspire heated debates everywhere they are discussed, so I don't take any of the attacks personally. Even when someone Like Scott goes out of his way to make it a personal attack. I believe Scott is defending what he truly believes to be the "Facts". He just can't provide the "Evidence" required to make me believe it. Lacking that, he resorts to obscenities and name calling. Yeah, Tom,Clay and Ron have all been there, and done that, many many times over the course of many many years. I wouldn't expect any of them to ever post a message here.
I think you would be better of sending Scott a private e-mail at Silverwolfspirit_0410@yahoo.com There is a good chance he is not even looking in here any more.
Sure, I will send you a xerox copy of the cross aswell as pics of the jornal. Just send me an e-mail to Silverwolfspirit_0410@yahoo.com. I have founds pics of both so as not to give away any info concerning the location of anything of value. I must appologize for my actions earlier, but like I stated before, I am not playing any " games " as Jim mentioned and assumed automaticaly that I was out to " scam " people, when I never asked anyone for anything but maybe to invest some time to be involved in something of great intrest. I never asked anyone for any money or anything of value in any way. And my actions, although alittle extreme, were to prove that fact and to protect myself from such alligations. People should know the facts first before tossing off assumptions before they even know the or have seen the proof first.
to scott
ken
Washington
hey its cool ,im glad you responded so quickly i thought you might have quit coming here due to recent problems here.well i sent you a private email and let you know it was me and also i wanted to tell you i will not share you photos regardless of the situation.i am really amazed to here about your find and would like to know more
Hey Jim, I guess I made a pretty big assumption when "TOM" posted..I guess it was the wording that lead me to believe it was Mr Kollenborn just dropping a line or 2.Mr .Hatt what do you make of the 5 with the 5 dots around it in some what of a diamond shape on the Horse Map.In my opinion ,that thing sticks out like a sore thumb,I cant help not to look at it and wonder.....Would you care to enlighten me on why its so confusing,its kind of like that 3 on the Horse,I can live without knowing about that 3.But that 5, I cant help but notice it everytime I look at that map,I have even gone as far as giving it a name, I call it the "5 of Diamonds"
Scott
ken
Washington
hey the cross you really cant tell what is on there,but that journal sure looks interesting,it looks like it has been through a flood or two,but it definitly looks old.when do you plan on coming to arizona to work your find
Yeah, the cross is a bad xerox copy. As people know xerox copiers wasn't the greatest back in 1993. Plus I was afraid of cracking or breaking the glass. Setting 20 pounds of anything on a thin sheet of glass isn't a great idea. Yeah the journal has been through alot, but atleast it shows I have proof of what I am talking about. Am hoping that the treasure venture will get going here soon
A good solution to your "5 of Diamonds"
Some would go as far as saying it's a certain mountain area or a peak. I will tell you this: Once you find the Horse, you will see your "5 of Diamonds" Believe in what your Heart tells you and walk that path. There are somethings the author just cannot tell you here and may not want to tell you at all. You sure ask all the Wright question's young one , the answer you seek is in face , you will soon see. Your Butt and Tail observation has alot more meaning than told to you , clear your mind and look at the Big Picture.
The Horse on the Map has alot more meaning the it seems. The " Mane " the way it is carved looks like it spells out " Mill " it could mean as in " Mill Site " where the Spanish used the river to mill thier gold. Or it could mean " Millions " as the back of the Heart Map is said to mean. I have found an old Spanish Mill Site not far from the River where up the trail from there about 8 miles is a rock outcroping with the same Horse as carved on the map is carved. The " Tail " the way it is cared looks like flowing water. Meaning either a River or a Wash that has water that flows down it. Now, on the original carving of the Horse Map, it shows 3 crosses just South of the River Crossing. Those are Old Placer Markings. The " 5 of Diamonds " means there are 5 caches of gold buried in the location. One was found in the 80's not far from the rock outcroping with the Horse carved on it. Still 4 to be found in the location the Map represents. Unfortunatlly, the Horse Map represents a good 20 mile or more area. Hope my opinion of what the map means gives You some insite.
You should Apologize Scott Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
I know your trying to offer your opinion, and thats perfectly fine,its a free world..After everything you have said and the way you acted here,I really dont care about your opinion and any help you have to offer....I noticed some of the things you said to me as well,but thats not the issue at hand...The bottom line is, you should apologize,not to me, But to Jim for everything you said....I dont care how you feel or what you felt was wrong,it just doesnt matter.You were rude and just flat out wrong for the way you acted,I would not have responded to you but you offered your opinion to a question I asked.....Im surprised you still come aroud here,but thats not the issue.I have never met Jim, but he offers key advice and is willing to communicate here with those that want to learn from someone who has actually has been in the field, he has been in and out of those mountains with well RESPECTED people. How would you feel if someone talked to your Father like that,what you said was not right, and you probably know that and dont want to admit it. Be a man and admit your wrongs, he never said you were wrong,he pointed out some flaws and that was it, bottom line .As for my 5 of Diamonds theory, even if your right, I will still feel that your wrong but thats just my opinion.Well im gone for now, I hope I dont get cursed out for trying to help
I have been " On the Field " I have about 15 years of Research both on the field and in the Library, talking to people, hiking up and down canyons and mountains from Red Mountain to Four Peaks and beyond. This was ofcourse before Four Peaks was off limits to hikers back then. Me and Bill Scovel, the man whom Jay Fraser's book " Lost Dutchman Mine Discoveries " is about and his many years of reserch and discovery were frinds for about 15 years, until his death in October of 2005. He was like a second father to me. Him and I did alot of research and discovered alot. All of his wisdom and knowldge was passed on to me during those years, plus making myown discoveries out on the field and research. So, I have done the leg and bookwork as they say. And I did appologize in my last few statements, but like I said. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, and am not going to even try. You and Jim will believe whatever you want to believe even if the fact's were to slap you in the face. And that's my opinion and I am sticking to it. Peace
what happened in 1751
ken
Washington
why is 1751 such an important date
1751 is not an important date
Someone Who Know's Something
In the North
1751 is only on the today's versions of the Stone Cross's , 1751 is NOT on the Stone Cross's I saw in the late 70's . Somehow , after the Real Stone Cross's came to be lost , 1751 , mysteriously appeared on one cross . Bilbrey did not find the cross's in 1983 as stated by the man who wrote this story , it was 1978 or 1979 when he found them . Bilbrey's cross's did not have 1751 on them at all!The picture's above are the 1st time I have seen the 1751 appear at the bottom . The Cross's were found in a area not to far from the Coded area , with many hidden meanings . 1751 , may have been the year they were made , but , that is about it........
Anonymous person in the north
An observation
Tucson, Az
I have several different photos of the crosses all taken by different people at different times. They all show the 1751 on them. I dont see where the the man that wrote the story said that bilbrey found them in 1983 as you stated. The only thing i can find about 1983 is where he said "On March 10, 1983, Michael Bilbrey, then 32 years old and already a thirteen-year veteran in the search for the Lost Dutchman Mine, filed a mining claim, LD8, in an area where he believed that the Peralta Stone Maps led to". Where did you see that he said bilbrey found them in 1983? Can you tell us how you "happened" to see the original crosses in the late 70's? Do you by any chance have photos of them taken in the late 70's with out the 1751 on them?
You are Right
In the North
I made a mistake , he doesn't say they were found in 1983 , on the other side of the coin , I do have photo 's that dont show a 1751 at the bottom and one other thing that was added on as well . I DONT'T know who added the marks but I sure would like to find out.
Here is another one: In the North Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
To the person in the North,good afternoon,my name is Elijah.I am quite confused as to what you are saying or may be trying to say.I've been given some photos of the stone crosses and they all appear to have the date 1751,even in Bob Wards book,the crosses have the date as well.I am curious to know what kind of pictures you claim to have, or how you came to the conclusion that 1751 may have been added on,from what I understand,not to many people have seen the Stone Crosses,and they have disappeared for many years now.Also,you speak of a "Coded Area" with "Hidden Meaning"...................Look I not trying to be mean,but come on, your baiting,and trying to get info,maybe you should be Honest and ask the question you want to ask.....How can we take you seriously?
Fact OLife
ed
Back East
If the treasure does exist and is found. It will be by someone who has never heard of it or the dutchman. But was out for a stroll and ended up tripping over it.
analyzing clues is futile.......
Someone will find the mine by tripping over it Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Ed-Back East... It has been my personal observation that this conclusion is usually reached by people that have either never actually been in the mountains, or have only made a superficial search, and become disgruntled by the enormity of the task. The Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe, and the Lost Dutchman Mine have been carefully covered and intentionally concealed, by individuals interested in preventing anyone from finding them in the manner you have suggested. The article that appears at the top of this page was written not for the purpose of convincing anyone that the Stone Maps are authentic and the legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine is true, but to document for future generations, some of the monumental discoveries that have been made by past searchers. When either one or both are found, it will be the result of the powers of intellect and observation, combined with the hard work and dedication, of these searchers, some still living and others long dead.. Not until the Stone Maps are solved and/or the Lost Dutchman Mine is found, will the value of these discoveries be recognized and fully appreciated. I received an e-mail the other day from someone that has been following this discussion and several others on various other websites. His point of focus was on some of the more outrageous people, that highlight their opinions with obscenities and vulgarities or a constant barrage of repetitious nonsense, as if these tactics would somehow make their opinions stand out above the rest.. In closing, he reminded me that IT IS ALWAYS THE EMPTY DRUMS THAT MAKE THE LOUDEST NOISE. You might want to keep that in mind as you browse the Internet for information about buried treasure or lost mines. Jim Hatt
WELL SAID
azmula
Glendale, AZ
Jim, Your comments are well put and you are correct a researcher can not rely only on books and documents. Sooner or later you have to verify your research theories. azmula
Yes Azmula, Theories are wonderful things! It really doesnt take any talent, education, time or money to form one. Without people like Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, and Albert Einstein, and their theories, we would not have things like light bulbs, telephones and Quantum Mechanics. The down side of theories is (as any one of these men could have told you) On the average, you have to work your way through Two or Three thousand of them before you find one that works. Most Dutch Hunters I have known, get stuck on one theory and close their minds to all the rest. Some of them have spent a half a lifetime or more trying to prove one theory that had little or no merit to begin with. I havent even kept track of how many of my own theories have gone down the tubes, when I tried to prove them in the field. Lets be generous and say I have had 200 of them fail. Using the law of averages for theories, that means I only have somewhere between 1,300 and 2,300 more to come up with and test before I hit a winner! That looks pretty grim, but on the other side of the coin, it puts me 199 times ahead of the guy that is still trying to prove his first theory. Jim
Rex, It would be a safe bet that most of the people that visit this website have not only heard of Bob Ward, but knew him well. Bob was one of the most colorful personalities that ever traveled the trails of the Superstition Mountains. The stories that circulate about him and his activities in the mountains are numerous and not always flattering. But... I can close my eyes and see him saying "AND THEY'RE ALL TRUE". Not everyone agreed with him. A lot of people believe he was a teller of tall tales. But to this day, nobody I know, that knew him, can talk about him without having a smile on their face. Some of the best stories I ever heard about him came from Bob Corbin, and took place way before I came to Arizona. Bob Ward got himself into some hot water with the Sheriff down in Florence one time when Corbin was the sitting Attorney General for the state of Arizona. Bob Corbin made a personal phone call to that Sheriff, introduced himself as a friend of Bob Wards and managed to pull him from the fire with a Gentleman's agreement. Though I only knew Bob Ward but for a short time before his death, I had a great respect for his time served in the mountains and considered him my friend. Did you have another question? Jim
Happy Thanksgiving to all who come to this Website
Happy Thanksgiving Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Same to you Elijah, and Thank You!
1847
C L D
The old rail line that runs through Florence Junction is named 1847. I came across this on an old survey map. Couldn't tell you which one.
1847
C L D
Queen Creek, AZ
The old rail line that runs through Florence Junction is named 1847. I came across this on an old survey map. Couldn't tell you which one.
1847
C L D
Queen Creek, AZ
Perhaps I was too hasty to name it the 1847...on the map, the number 1847 is shown adjacent to the rail line as it cuts across
florence Junction. There is nothing on the map saying the rail line is the 1847...just the number, printed next to the rail line. The map was dated in the 1900's so it seemed to me that 1847 did not refer to the mapping date. I am no cartographic expert...but it seemed it could tie in with that particular clue, especially considering the stone maps were found in that local. Maybe somebody will find the mine and be real cool and give me a hundred bucks or something. ha ha ha
According to my Topo map, The elevation of Florence Junction is approx. 1,880 feet. I suspect that you are seeing the elevation.
1847
CLD
I bet you are right. I wanted to ask though, if a previous map might possibly have shown the elevation in the same spot (on the map) thereby giving that old geezer a very cryptic way of showing a map position, while arguably allowing him (or anyone else today who ALREADY knows where the mine is, to say...no, that's just a reference to the elevation"? Just to be a good sport I'm going to assume that you and a certain other buddy of yours DON'T already know where the location is...and HAVEN'T been using your very public SEARCH and various forum's to steer the unwashed masses of doting prospectors who worship your credentials AWAY from the actual location. Far Away from it. Far far away from it. You would never do THAT..would you? I bet you wouldn't. By the way, he who has ears to hear let him hear what CLD says unto the world(no not JESUS, but just plain old ordinary CLD)...The "hat" that so many use in their search pattern might just NOT be the correct hat shaped formation. Get outside the lines a little and start looking for a stetson type hat without a brim maybe. I know where one of THOSE is...Hmm. Maybe that formation EVEN is right now, this very minute, posing under another name...and maybe it is a VERY, EXTREMELY popular hiking destination. One that's not NEARLY SO FAR into the superstitions as we all believe...ha ha. Maybe there is more than one approach to that mine. A front approach that can be watched anytime of the day or night by enterprising individuals who might or might not know where it is, and a rougher approach from another angle, past the cherubim that watches the mine...past the tree...up up up..a freaking rough climb, you get the gist. Maybe that's just the dreamer in me. Just one more question...are you going to shoot me if you find me in the mine? Hypothetically.
apologies
CLD
Queen Creek,AZ
Seriously though I was only being tongue-in-cheek, and instead came across as cheeky and rude. I respect "the Hatt" and all of his hard work and dedication. Even if you did "hypothetically" know where the old dirt sifters hole was, more power to you!!! When I show up at the place please don't shoot me. By the way, when the Blind Bowman spoke of a complex binary mariner's code...I think He was speaking in code..because that hat...also looks surprisingly like the hull of a ship. It kind of chaps me that the Blinding Bowman wants me to think that old JW was conversant with some "complex binary mariners code" language. But then again who knows, maybe JW was a world traveling ships navigator in some royal navy, or a pirate or maybe even Magellan's reincarnation. I mean if Lincoln can come back as the first black woman president...anything is possible. jk And I talk like I know a lot but that's mostly bluff. you might have already tagged it as B-ll S--t. Mucho respecto el capitane
When or if you ever settle in on one train of thought, I will try to form a response.
train of thought
CLD
QueenCreek, AZ
Sorry for the discombobulation Hattuush. There is on open cave hidden in the middle crack of three cracks that looks out westward upon the mining camp restaurant and eastward (from the other side of the crack/crevice) it looks upon the flatiron. If you look toward the cave from the siphon draw trail,(which you cannot see from the trail), you will see a cliff face that has an obvious yellow mineral deposit across about 1/3 of it. I know the cave has been mined because I have been in it. There are at least 2 collapsed tunnels and another mostly closed tunnel descending into the cliff moving towards the face. The walls of this cave show some very interesting mineral deposition both black and also chocolate brown in color, as well as flakes of a metallic yellow mineral that does not seem to oxidize. I say that the cave is large...but really it is large enough to stand upright in some spots and at others I had to crawl, or worm through. There is a hole that you can descent through into the cave and there is a "walk/crawl" through opening at a lower level and to the south-east. From this opening you can see the Flat-iron, but a tree screens you from the view of others. Here is my question...Are you familiar with this cave? If so, was it a mine at one time?
The cave on Superstition Mountain Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
No, I have never seen that cave. Maybe someone else who visits this website knows something about it and can answer your question.
mr Hatt
CLD
QueenCreek,AZ
Thank you for doing your best to make a newcomer to this forum feel so welcome. Your friendly enthusiasm is overwhelming. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Ok men...James does not want to talk to me. Frown. Guess I forgot deodorant. Anyone else know this cave? Didn't find anything in it except excavations and covered tunnels and lots of black fly's and I don't know a lot about gold so...anyone have any light to shine on this one? Hope it's not someones peaceful retreat...if so oop's, sorry I outed it. Mr. Hatt...I sorrow that you didn't take to me. I really do respect your insights and you seemed to have a lighter side so I joked a little with you. I apologize for treating you with familiarity and hope we can get along better. I will try to comport myself in a less rambunctious manner.
he he he chuckle chuckle he he
Dont take it so personal CLD Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Dont take it so personal CLD. If you have read all the way through the discussion here you should have figured out two things. 1 I dont take to anyone right away, especially those who do not put their names and contact information on their posts. 2 I have hot days and I have cold days. Never anything in between. I know There are medications that level out that kind of person. Ive tried them and didnt like them. They take away all of my ambition, emotion and driving force that hauls me in and out of the mountains. If you look back through history, there have been many well known men that suffered from the same hot & cold syndrome Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Leonardo DeVinci, Caesar, Alexander Graham Bell, Albert Einstein, etc There is a very long list. Good thing for them that they did not have mood altering drugs back then. If they did, we probably never would have heard of any of them. Over the course of my lifetime I have learned to use my weakness to my advantage. When Im hot, I do things that a lot of men believe are not possible. When Im cold, I lay low and let the heat build up again. Its usually the lay low time when I get on the computer and deal with all you guys that try to convince me that you have everything all figured out, but have nothing in hand to show for it. Every thing I do is done with vigor and determination, or I do nothing at all. I guess your comments just struck me on my nothing at all side. You'll either have to catch me on an already hot day, or come up with something that really inspires me. Jim Hatt
Of course Jim believeing he is the all knowing and all doing guru of everything involving anything to do with treasure and gold mines in Arizona, even if someone with proof and hard evidence such as myself does come along, Jim and others on here will still refute and attack anyone who they feel threatened by. You are not the only one to feel such from him and others CDL, so like I stated in the past. Even if the truth and proof came from someone else or was to bite them in the ass, they would still scoff and believe what they want. So, nothing anyone says or does will change that. I have sent photos and proof to back up my story. Sounds like you really need to be on those " mood altering " drugs Jim. Then maybe you won't be so bi-polar perhaps?? Or live in your own sugar coated reality?? Anyways, that's my two - cents tossed in, and I will stick to it
Hello Scott, Its nice to see you have cleaned up your act a little. You use the words PROOF and HARD EVIDENCE quite often, but contrary to what you said above, you have never provided me with anything that comes close to either one. Sending me a photo of a cross (which was actually a Xerox copy of a photo) proves only that you have a Xerox copy of a photo of a cross. It goes nowhere near proving where you got the photo or that you ever owned the cross in the photo, or what it was made of. How stupid do you think we all are? If you do have PROOF and HARD EVIDENCE that you do not feel comfortable sharing, that is a horse of a different color and understandable, but that puts you back in the position of not having proven anything. The more you bang your empty drum, the more foolish you look. You are between a rock and a hard place my friend. Damned if you do and Damned if you dont (provide PROOF and HARD EVIDENCE ). Weve all been there at one time or another. Some people can handle it, some cant. Jim
LOL LOL LOL @ SCOTT ONCE AGAIN JIM HAS SHOWN U HOW FAR U R OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE. LOL LOL LOL
Like I stated before, I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone else. All will be proven when me and my crew find what is at the end of my map. And yeah, I told you also that showing more then I have would give away more info. to the location then I am willing to show. And as far as " banging hollow drums ", yours beat louder then mine old man. Atleast I have proof and haven't wasted years and years of my life chacing a dream. Like I said, your reaaaaaalllyyy need to get on some meds dude. You live in one really messed up sugar coated reality. And just for that reason and your admitance that you are seriously bi - polar makes everything you say sound like a dreamed up fantasy. So, who's beating a drum now old man?? Nothing you say to me or anyone else has any substance, all it is is hot air. So, keep blowing your horn and living in your little world and wasting your life chacing a dream like all the rest in the search for riches and glory. And when you die, all you will be is another nut who wasted his life never finding anything. And when I do find one of the caches of gold, I will make sure when the news goes out to prove you wrong and mention your name with relish. Sure, you might sue me for slander, but it will be oh so worth it to rub your face in the dirt. You made me your rival old man, when all I did was come on here asking for help and info and you attacked me straight off. You and your cohort Elijah. No one toss down the gauntlet before me without me picking it up and taking up the challenge. So, as the great Sherlock Holmes once said, the Game is Afoot. So, let the Game begin.
Since there is no official moderator or host for the discussions on this website, it has been S.O.P. that the author of each article informally guides the discussions that follow. Following that tradition, I feel a certain responsibility for guiding the flow of conversation here and keeping it on the subject as much as possible. As part of that responsibility, I also feel obligated to make an apology to you for the LAUGHING post made by the anonymous poster above. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to post it anonymously, in my opinion is a cowardly act, and I disagree with the practice no matter what side of the discussion it favors. I disagree with of lot of your theories and ideas, but I respect you for putting your name on them. That said As far as any rivalry between you and I is concerned. I see no need for it. The area you are interested in, is so remote from the area I am interested in, that the chances are our paths will never cross. I told you in the very beginning that you may be onto something very good, maybe even equal to or bigger than whatever is on Hat mountain, and referred to on the Stone Crosses. But, in my opinion the Stone Crosses do not apply to the area you are interested in, or anywhere near it. That is my opinion and you can take it or leave it. You offered me proof, I said I would take a look a it. You sent it and I looked it over. I did not accept it as proof of anything. If you want a different opinion, youre going to have to go somewhere else to get it. There is no game afoot between you and I. If it pleases you to think there is, then knock yourself out, but as far as Im concerned there never was and never will be. If you want to try to find someone else in this discussion to talk to, be my guest, but this is my last response to you. Jim Hatt
OOps, guess you missed the underlined link to my e-mail Jim. Thats understandable...you were most likely cold that day. If you really need to ask me anything privately feel free...as if you need any info from me. Just so anyone I might inadvertently piss off can find and firebomb my house, Christopher Lee Drysdale is my name. Great...now we can be buddies. Or do you need my address and social security number to firmly legitimize me in your mind??? As far as hard evidence at hand...I'm fairly certain that I never claimed to have the location of LDM..oops I meant Lost Dutchman Mine (in case you need to contact the mine for further info), any treasure trove or treasure cave...and I KNOW I never said I had any GOLD or ANY MAP. Did you need hard evidence that I found a hidden cave? It's not that hard to find...go there, or not...it doesn't matter to me. I simply wondered if anyone knew of the cave and its history. Thank you for informing me so succinctly that you did not know either one. By the way Jim...although it is hard to believe your parents would name you Jimmy Hatt...what is YOUR middle name? Just so I can legitimize you in my OWN mind?? Peace
Hey thanks Scott it's swell to know that I am not the only persona non grata here. I hope you find what you are looking for...whatever that is. Just wanted to let you know that I have two feet and I stand on them rather well. Please don't use my postings as a boost up to the shoebox...so to speak. I would really like to stay out of other peoples gripes if you know what I mean. I was just wondering if you have taken a look at those crosses with blue/red lens glasses like you would view a 3d movie with? I see color differently one eye to the other and it looks like there might be a little shadow bas relief (so to speak) going on in those pictures. It has really come in handy as well when looking for markings in the field because the color-shade offset enhances the markings. If you haven't, you might be surprised what you would see...in the field. If that all sounds like BS to you that's fine too. Again, much luck to you.
I have an idea Scott. Why don't you write your own article about your project and submit it to Desert USA for publication on this website? That way you can run your own discussion about it. Your participation in this discussion about the stone maps is out of place, and bordering on Pathetic.
I Apologize for that One Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
I noticed my last message was taken and I DO APOLOGIZE to everybody for that.
Its seems like this discussion has gone south , why do some get so angry over things you wont tell and then have the nerve to down talk you on a personal level, NONE of these things have nothing to do with the subject at hand. The thing that really gets me is people think we work together,where did that come from?
When it comes right down to it, this discussion is pretty tame as far as LDM & Stone Map discussions go. Both topics tend to stir up a lot of disputes and disagreements. It's just the nature of the beast I guess. The problem is magnified in formats like this where people are allowed make posts anonymously. They are quick to make statements that they wouldn't think of saying, if they had to put their names at the bottom and be accountable for them. For every post you see on this site, I get 20-30 emails every day. This open forum is a very small part of the big picture. Don't take any of it too seriously or lose any sleep over it. Jim
On the stones there seems to be an equation 2=3-( )-18=7. Is the circle within a circle a spanish treasure symbol...or is it just to represent an unknown value in the equation? what I am looking for here is an expert opinion or even an expert "gut feeling".
I am not sure I am qualified to give you an Expert Opinion any more than I could refer you to anyone that could. Although I do know a number of people that consider them selves to be Experts on the subject of the stone maps, their theories and conclusions about the maps are seriously flawed when scrutinized. However I can offer you more than just a Gut Feeling. Lets call it an Educated Guess based on 20 years of pounding the trails in the area the stone maps apply to. There are two types of circles on the set of maps. The circle within a circle you mention, and the circle with a dot in it. The circle within a circle appears twice on the Priest Map, once on the lower Trail Map, (in the formula) once on the upper Trail Map with the heart in it (The Heart Map) at the end of the trail in the center of the Heart, and once on one of the Stone Crosses. The circles with dots in them appear on the Horse Stone three times. Without telling you any more than is necessary to answer your question, I will tell you that I have concluded that the 3 circles with a dot in them (on the Horse map) are mine locations. I have been in all three areas many times, and was astonished to find very old markers leading into them, and have found retrievable gold in the canyons those areas drain into. There are old trails that are clear in some places and impossible to follow in others, that run past marked Saguaros and markers leading into each area. In these areas, I have found mine dumps, with no visible sign of a mine anywhere, but the material in the dumps has to have come from an excavation of some kind not far away. The meaning of the circle within a circle symbol is not so clear to me. I can make a strong argument for them being cache sites, but that theory is weakened by that symbols use in the formula you mentioned. I can also make a strong argument for them being mine sites because of trails, markers and dumps found in the areas they apply to, are just like the ones in the areas the circles with dots in them apply to. This causes me to believe that if there are caches, they are concealed in old mines, and identified by a different symbol on the maps because of the caches in them. The use of that symbol in the formula is still a mystery to me. I do have a working theory about it, but it has a flaw that I cant get worked out of it. That's my "Educated Guess" about the circles in a nutshell. Jim
Your educated guess was also quite educational. Have you considered the possibility that the symbol might possibly show a mine trap of some sort..maybe a pit of some kind, or perhaps a boulder drop or something? I was pondering that equation and wondering whether it was a cryptic way of saying "plan to deal with a death trap as part of the equation". Just a thought Jim...thank you for your attention to my question! It is refreshing to get a straightforward answer to a question that has been dogging me. Here's hoping the next time your hands are "hot" it's because they're holding some treasure!!!
The way that double circle is used in the formula or equation is one of the most curious things on the maps for me. Why was it used at the end of the trail instead of the circle with a dot in it? In observing the way it is used on the other pieces of stone, it appears to be referring more to an area than it does to a specific location. Especially the way it is used at the end of the trail. There must be something multiple or non-specific implied by its use, and the circle with a dot applies to a specific location or item? Just thinking out loud here. Anyway, Im glad you brought up the subject. Maybe someone can take my thoughts a step or two further, and come up with a logical theory to explain it.
About "Death Traps" Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Christopher, I have read several articles and chapters in various books about Death traps built into old mines. To date, I have never seen any evidence that anyone has ever discovered one. Either they are just a figment of someone's imagination, or... They really do exist... And work very well.
In response to "death traps" re "Either they are just a figment of someone's imagination, or... They really do exist... And work very well."
The interesting thing about a death trap is that unless you are very paranoid...which I am...you probably wouldn't ever notice one. Possibly the reason more aren't come across is that the excavations they protect tend to be very well filled in and camouflaged in the first place. I have only seen a couple of them and they have both been boulder deadfall's. One was so totally obvious but only if you looked up when underneath it. I saw it by accident because I started chasing a fly that wouldn't leave me alone. The thing is...I don't have any idea if my prodding around underneath it would have dropped it. It was a little back yard mechanic-ish, but I stopped my rock moving IMMEDIATELY and just studied it for about 30 minutes. I found it very fascinating to say the least. It is very easy to find this trap if you are interested in seeing your first...it's very local. Just email me if you want the coordinates.
Thank's for the "warm-up" Jim. Many happy returns.
Chris
Jim, Do you think the number to next to the double circle on the heart map could be the value for the double circle in the equation? I suck with algebra or I would check it myself. Also If you look rather closely at the circles you will notice a third circle that encompasses the other two. It is quite a bit wider than the other 2 circles. So really it is a circle within a circle within a circle. I am so clever> ha ha. I just noticed that other circle. Maybe it could be a well or maybe a "topographic" type of clue...maybe for survey purposes having to do with ignoring land contour when measuring or something?? Anyway...it makes it look like the primer end of a shotgun shell.
Is there a safe way to trigger a death trap without it actually falling ontop of anyone. I guess , if they{miners} planned on returning to this area to clean out whatever was left, they must have set the trap to where it can be released safely. Or maybe these traps are just Decoys to make someone believe there is something there to uncover...
Good questions...that I do not know the answers for. I have thought about the triggering or defusing of a trap...but It would probably take maybe a dozen men and block and tackle equipment etc to do it safely. Also what I perceived to be a dead-fall trap may just have been some tumbled scree and boulders in a crevice. I can tell you that I am fairly certain the trap I found was set over a face digging...and I don't think that there was any treasure or shaft or anything. It appeared to just be an open digging in a cave. It was enough to make me nervous though and I did not dig anymore. Paranoid means still alive. ha ha
I don't know if Waltz walked or rode a horse from Phoenix to the mtns and back. An old timer "Goerge Lewis" Grandson of Sina Lewis told me that his Grandfather operated some mines near the old Milk Ranch (before he married Sina)and that Grandfather told George that he gave Waltz a ride from Phx to the Milk Ranch on the back of his buckboard with Waltz's burro following behind several times. The time frame for the story is correct, but whether George's Grandfather knew who Waltz was or not cannot be verified. According to the story in Ely's book, Waltz always rode a horse to the mine. I don't think we will ever know the answer to your question for sure.
Yes, I would very much like to see that sometime after the Holidays are over. I have seen a couple similar things myself but never was able to conclude if I thought they were natural formations or man made. I have a feeling Elijah may want to join us on that trip if you don't mind.
Sure Jim, Elijah is invited. Not much of a "trip" though in my estimation. The location is in the several small hills that line up through the Goldcamp...next to the golf-course. Come to think of it...I may want to try for some permission to access the land. When I was a little bit younger, I just hiked in...but I went there yesterday and there were do not trespass signs a little more to the north but only 1 hill over. In any case I think we would be okay because the area seems to be open to others than homeowners. Wouldn't want to subvert any ARS though. At any rate...the directions are yours any time. Chris
You are invited to our death-trap party...after the holydays...if it ever happens. Peace
"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord."And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."
Waltz in Wickenburg Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Jim is it true that Jacob Waltz went to Wickenburg with a man name Jack Swilling back in the 1860's.Also was Waltz married, and if so , how many times did he get married
Is it true that Waltz...... Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I can't answer that one Elijah, I was not around in the 1860's. Best we can do at this late date is an evaluation of the author that wrote the statements you are referring to. Odds are... He wasn't around in the 1860's either, so he is probably just repeating something he read by some other author. Tom Kollenborn has done a lot of research on Jacob Waltz and written a lot of articles about his comings and goings. Do a GOOGLE search for Tom Kollenborn and I bet you will find a page that get as close to answering your questions as close as anyone can.
Have you ever heard of anyone who calls themselves "the hat"? This is not in reference to your name but to a cryptic message smudged into the dust on my vehicle to "face the hat". Ever hear of anything like this?
"For Tyre built herself a fortress And piled up silver like dust, And gold like the mire of the streets."
Jim...I was wondering about the heart's. Once you find the first heart...does the insert give directions to the second heart...from the location of the first heart? In other words, do you look for the first heart and then use it as a starting point...follow the directions on the insert heart...and find the second hearts location thataway? I think the good book say "Where your treasure is there will your heart be also". "Also" as in -in addition too. As in "your treasure will also have a heart". Whatta ya think Jim?
HOW TO USE THE HEARTS Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Chris, When you reach the end of the trail (shown as a circle within a circle) on the first stone heart, you will find a heart (out in the mountains). That heart which you have found in the mountains designates the end of the trail. Standing at the end of the trail, you remove the first heart insert from the upper trail maps heart cavity, and insert the Latin heart into it. Shown on the Latin heart are landmarks that can be found in the area around you at the end of the trail. Placing the Latin heart into the heart cavity, gives you the proper orientation of those landmarks with respect to North, South, East and West. Sounds simple enough huh? The problem is People find hearts, or at least things that they think look like hearts to them (depending on how far they are willing to stretch their imaginations) all over in the mountains. The CORRECT heart will have the landmarks shown on the Latin heart in the area around it. If you cant find them, you havent found the correct heart, and you are NOT standing at the end of the trail. My next article on this website, will include several photos of the correct heart, (if you cant wait for that article and feel that you must see them now, stop in at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Museum on Hwy 88, North of Apache Junction, and ask for Larry Hedrick. He has copies of the photos I intend to use in the article and if hes not too busy at the time, he will be glad to show them to you). It wont do you any good to ask Larry where the photos were taken. He doesnt know, I didnt tell him. But You find THAT heart, and you will be standing at the end of the trail shown on the stone maps, and the landmarks shown on the Latin heart will be found in the area around you. Note: Solving the Roman Numeral code on the back of the Latin heart, will make your search for the Latin heart landmarks a lot easier and save you a lot of time. If you have 20 years or so to invest in the search, you might be able to find them the hard way, like I did. A few photos of some of those landmarks will also be included in the coming article. (Which is by the way, a work that is still in progress). It may be finished in a month from now, it could be a year from now or even 5 years down the road, depending on the outcome of events that are currently beyond my control.
latin hearts
Jim,
I'm not saying that I wouldn't let you take me into your confidence...but, I would probably openly share a thing like that only with someone I had KNOWN for 20 years and you don't even know me at all. ha ha Not above standing on the shoulders of giants but I CAN say I understand. The race is to the strong...but it's the race that's all the fun. That's how legs get strong enough to stand on. Anyway...I may never find JACK crap when I'm looking but it won't matter. The good Lord made me a rich man, but it's not wealth you can count. Good luck graces the preparatory efforts of hard working people. Hope your hard work pays off Jim. Thanks for lending me your knowledge.
Jim,
I'm not saying that I wouldn't let you take me into your confidence...but, I would probably openly share a thing like that only with someone I had KNOWN for 20 years and you don't even know me at all. ha ha Not above standing on the shoulders of giants but I CAN say I understand. The race is to the strong...but it's the race that's all the fun. That's how legs get strong enough to stand on. Anyway...I may never find JACK crap when I'm looking but it won't matter. The good Lord made me a rich man, but it's not wealth you can count. Good luck graces the preparatory efforts of hard working people. Hope your hard work pays off Jim. Thanks for lending me your knowledge.
Jim, you sarcasm is wasted on me...and my point was wasted on you. I was not entreating you to confide in me but offering my compliments on your find. Kudos Jim...if you have found the heart...kudos! I travel to the well when I want water...but the well is not the only water. Good luck Jim.
By the way Jim...when you have found the first heart...that looks like a valentines heart (stylized), you will be within sight of the latin heart...which looks like an actual human heart. Follow the second set of directions from the "latin" (human) heart...or you will end up in the wrong place. Drink THAT water Jim. Peace.
My four kids make me crazy. Maybe I'm bi-polar...who knows, anyway ain't life grand?
Last question
CLD
Jim...last question of the night and then I'll stop clogging up the forum for a while. You still got that old ten dollar cowboy hat?
Ten Dollar Cowboy Hat Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
For whatever it's worth, I have a room full of Cowboy hats, but the ten dollar straw hat is still my favorite. Please keep your questions and comments on the subject of the stone maps, you're beginning to get way off the track.
Do you suppose the maps give any indication of what is waiting at ground zero? Treasure wise I mean? By the way if there IS a death trap, I hope you dodge it. I certainly wouldn't want a trap waiting to get ME...if I were ever to locate anything. Well you know maybe good old Zeus will watch over me. Thanks for your time Jim.
Let's call "treasure" ground zero...just for fun. What would it be comprised of? You're such a literal chap...wouldn't it be a gas if you got to the "circle within a circle" and all you found was a circle within a circle.
Ground Zero / Treasure? Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Observe the words "EL TESORO DE LOS EGLESIA DE SANTA FE on one of the stone crosses. This is the only place you will find the word Treasure or any reference to it on any of the pieces of the stone maps. The story about the Jesuits hiding a treasure can be found in a book by Ted De Grazia. "De Grazia and his mountain the Superstition". In Bob Ward's book "Ripples of Lost Echoes" there is a chapter on the stone crosses, in which he gives an itemized list of what he believed the treasure consists of. As with everything related to Legends and Lore, it is up to each individual to evaluate the material and it's source, and form his own opinion about it's credibility. My advice to people who ask for it is always the same: Do your own homework, blaze your own trails and form your own conclusions. To follow in the footsteps of those who came before you, is to come to the same end. "The definition of insanity, is to do the same thing over and over again, and expect different results" ~Albert Einstein~
But if I don't ask questions I might have to learn Portuguese Jim.
Questions & Answers Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Chris, I hope someone out there is getting something out of this discussion, because the feedback I am getting from you, indicates that it is all going way over your head.
You are a hypocrite Jim. First you quote Albert Einstein to give weight to your own words and then you betray your attitude toward me to be just as elitist and arrogant as the educators who belittled the intelligence of Albert Einstein. I feel like I am getting something out of what you are giving but who's to say? Sorry you turned out to be such a prick Jim.
GIVE A GUY ENOUGH ROPE... Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
JIm...my four year old pushed enter before I could identify myself. However, since YOU insist on acting like a four year old Jim you can pretend to dismiss me if you want to. By the way Jim...someone knows who you REALLY are. Now what was it you lectured so many people on Jim??? Wasn't it full disclosure and credibility? Who wants to know who Jim really is? Have a nice day yourself "JIM".
Guess now I just sit back and wait for you to fire bomb my house. Oh and by the way for what it's worth thank you for the rope.
Will the REAL Jim Hatt please stand up! Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I remember the 4 yr old thing Chris. Had a few of them myself way back when. Over the years there have been quite a few people accused of being Jim Hatt, just because they repeated something I said or wrote somewhere, or they had thoughts of their own that ran parallel to mine. But this Chris... This is the first time I have been accused of being someone else. I foresee the hits on this website going way up, as everyone keeps checking in for the big uncloaking when you expose my real name for all to see.
I have been checking around and apparently I'm the only one who DIDN'T know that you were the devil, Jim. So I guess the jokes on me. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
The circle with a point at its center is ancient.usually when it appears, it has the same meaning: the sun or something that is closely associated with the sun.On nautical charts it is used for chimneys
, towers, and high structures in general, visible from the sea.In cabbalistic mysticism the circle within a circle was used to represent the archangel Michael. in esoteric (1) astrology it represents the creative spark of divine consciousness. This spark of consciousness is the self ("I think, thus I am," as Descartes expressed it). In astrological psychology
cc stands for the desire to live and the individual's life energy. ..............(1)esoteric knowledge, in the dictionary (non-scholarly) sense, is that which is available only to a narrow circle of "enlightened", "initiated", or specially educated people. Hey Jim that's you. lol...........yes I plagiarized most of this.
I have been checking around Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Well come on Chris, Tell us all what you have learned. Surely you are man enough to be right up front with it. Let's see what you got and what your credible sources are. I've got nothing to hide. So you can drop the childish name calling and get right down to business. By the way, Might your birthday be 05/31/1972? (Just to be sure I don't have you confused with someone else).
Thats why I Never RESPONDED to his death trap party invite,it seems to be a good choice.
This Guy is Nutty Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Hello Elijah, Hope you had a nice Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I always try to give a new poster as much benefit of the doubt as possible. In Chris' case, the topic of "Death Traps" is one that has interested me for a long time, and I would like to someday meet someone with a personal experience with one or more of them. You never know if a guy may be onto something or not until you give him a chance to explain himself. But, when a grown man resorts to childish behavior to make his point, the doubt is gone. It must have been interesting for you to sit back and watch this whole thing evolve, as the end result confirmed your initial suspicions. There is one individual that has sent me some very interesting information about Death Traps via e-mail, but I can't get him to agree to discussing it online here. Can't really blame him for that, they way the discussion has been going lately. Jim
Its a New Year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Elijah Wright
Paradise Valley,Az
Its time to stop asking Questions and start working on your theories, especially if you live here. "You have to Get up Get out and Get something" "Dont spend all your Time trying to get by" Im sick of people claiming to know everything and in reality they only know what they have read or Misread, dont waste your time trying to down talk people, even though ,just a week ago, you were the student Begging for Knowledge from the Teacher. What is it you really Fear, you can only ask so many questions. I have a question for you?? Why did you have to let everyone know you had a personal conversation with Jim, there was No need to bring up the Straw Hat, and yet you just had to let us know!!!!!!!!Then you completely jump off the ledge(OOOO MYYYY GODDDDDD) and say that JIM isnt who he says he is, well since you know so much please enlighten us on who Jim Hatt really Is? I mean my caller ID says he is who He says He is, but who knows,I guessing you probably know more than my caller Id knows.....Its a New year , its time for you Haters to try New things, For God's Sake, even the Arizona Cardinals have decided to try things aliitle different this year, can YOU? Really, how much more do you think Mr. Hatt. can take before he fully disconnects himself from this kind of Public Conversation, and connection to all of us who are really in it for the Long Haul. Haters Never Prosper, got that . Stop drinking your HATORADE and typing at the same time, your starting to really make things even worse than before, once the Hatt Blows over, who going to be the next one to educate us like he can. In the end I will leave you with words from the great Coach ,Denny Green,"YOU are who we thought you Were, and we let em off the Hook" once he said that , he bascially handed in the pink slip........
That's probably me Jim. Elijah...funny I had the same uneasy feeling about you. You're right Jim...it was childish and I have my regrets. I thought you were Dr.Gene Ziegler. Oh no...that surely makes me a nut case. Whatever. So I suck at detective work. If I never find anything from that map I guess we'll be even. I will tell you this though...what I HAVE learned is more than you learned about me so go stroke your theories and have a nice day blood suckers.
Never had a personal conversation with Jim. Maybe you should follow your own advice because it sounds like your search would be seriously compromised without his tit to suck on. so keep on sucking it until maybe YOU have an original thought. laters loser
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. In the past month or so I picked up a book that has some great details about these death traps,The author of this book claims to have seen and defused one or more of these traps, and gives drawings on the ones they encountered.. The is also some other things You might find Very Interesting,and worth arguing, in this BOOK ,Trust me...They are based in the surrounding area.....
Elijah, I get out in those mountains about 16 hours a week. That's straight hiking time. If we are all done taking off the gloves then maybe we could put them back on and be civilized. Great...I'll start. I have it on semi good sources that Somewhere "around here" there is a death trap based on a cougar dead-fall trap in carlos casteneda's book journey to Ixtlan. Forget which chapter.
Watcher
What happened to the Church of Sante Fe and why would it lost trail lead to Phoenix
Annonymous Watcher Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
I am about to quit responding to anonymous posts, but I will reply to yours one time. You seem to be making several assumptions, and asking your question based on your assumptions. How about starting at the beginning, and explaining why you think something happened to the Church of Santa Fe, and why you think there is some kind of lost trail involved?
Sante Fe vs Arizona
Watcher
Santa Fe Appear's 2 times once on the cross and on the Horse Map . How does a Church or something taken from a Church Santa fe end up in Arizona and Why? Whoever took Whatever did not want anybody to know that it was taken or saw where it went(that trail is LOST) In a situation like this I am almost certain if this Church still exsist the archives and records have been burned or ruined to conceal what was taken or was once there(the lost Church)is not the Church that stands today . I thought it was safe to ASSUME thats what happened even though I do not understand why bring it 300 miles away to an unknown location your not fimilar with? I scared to leave my Name and how could you blame me
Annonymous Watcher Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
It might be easier for you to understand, if you stopped assuming that the words Santa Fe on the stone maps, are referring to the city by the same name in New Mexico, and concentrated on the Spanish meaning of "Santa Fe" which translates to "Holy Faith". ASSUMING is always risky business that rarely results in one coming to the right conclusion. No reason for you to be afraid of putting your name on your posts, unless you are afraid you might say something that you don't want to be held accountable for.
At the risk of "ASSUMING" that "THEY" refers to the Jesuits, and "IT" refers to the Treasure of the Church of Santa Fe. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). It is a pretty safe bet that that was their intention.
I think our post went up at the same time this morning ,I figured you might have hit the Mountains and I tried to give a simple opinion to a part of their question . I think at one point in time in the begining of it all that same thought crossed my mind as well
I think thats a pretty safe bet as well!!!! Thats why I only answered that part......I not even going to act like I know a great deal of whats going on,I do plan on finding out..
Original Stone Maps on display today Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
For anyone that is interested. Today is the last day of the 2009 Flagg Gem and Mineral Show, 9AM to 5PM at the Mesa Community College
1833 W. Southern (Southern and Dobson) Mesa, AZ. They are advertising a rare display of the Original Peralta Stone Maps. For more information click on the following Links: http://www.azminfun.com/asp/activities1.asp?Level=1100&Stope=1 and http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/events/flagg-gem-and-mineral-show-1013626/.
Stone Display
Rex Western
Corona, Ca
I think I would use the term, possible original stones. I have heard from more than one reliable source that Clarence Mitchell had some very good copies made and that is what you are seeing at the Flagg show.
Hello Rex, Don't take this personally, But... Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
You are welcome to use any term for the maps that you wish. The Flagg Foundation calls them the Originals and I fully agree with them. The "rumor" about Clarence Mitchell making copies has been in circulation for a long time now. Yet, no evidence has ever surfaced to substantiate it. Once history has been written, it takes a lot more than rumors and theories to change it. As far as your "reliable sources" are concerned. How about putting some names on the table here, so we can get right down to the sources, debate the facts and let everyone make up his own mind about to how reliable they are.
names
CLD
Queen Creek,AZ
Genero
Originals Stone maps
Rex Western
Corona, Ca
I have no problem giving names. Let me check if they do first. As far as them being the originals. What is you take on the Arizona Highways Jan. 2005 article of their examination and conclusion re: modern tool marks? I am in the camp of the Stones are real, I just question if the ones on display are. BTW Jim, I do have a copy of the ones you made. Very good job from working with just photos.
Not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. If you are agreeing, I will tip my hat to you. If you are disagreeing, I will just look the other way and go on about my own business. I probably receive more questions in e-mail about the Mitchel copies of the stone maps than I do about anything else. There's nothing I would like more than to have a knock-down drag-out dispute to the last man standing, right here and right now, about whether or not Mitchel gave originals or copies of the stone maps to the Flagg Foundation. If there is any evidence either way, let's all have a look at it, with no silly little girl games about "I'm not at liberty to say". It's already been "SAID" so now let's see the FACTS!
Glad to see you came back. I didn't really expect you to. You may have a little more IRON in you than I gave you credit for, and I'm glad to know there are still a few people like you around. We are not afraid of the truth here. Whether it works for our (my) theories or against them, the truth is what we seek. re: "I do have a copy of the ones you made. Very good job from working with just photos". If you are talking about the stone maps, I had much more than photos to work with. I had a set of the stones that were made by Richard Robinson from the originals. The only thing I made replicas of working from photos were the Stone Crosses and the Latin heart. The photos of the stone crosses I had to work with, were provided by Greg Davis, and taken when they were still in Bilbrey's possession. Tom Kollenborn provided the drawing of the Latin Heart. If you are seeking the truth, you have come to the right place to get it. We will dig through any amount of B.S. here to uncover it.
re: What is you take on the Arizona Highways Jan. 2005 article Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Somewhere in this website, I have already made a very lengthy response to that article, almost line by line. It might have been in the Gene Botts discussion. In summary, I found the evaluations to be very subjective and with little or no presence of a professional attitude. That is a debate I would also like to get into right here with those "professionals" if they are up to it. Odds are... they have already read my response and will never answer the challenge.
re: What is you take on the Arizona Highways Jan. 2005 article Jim Hatt
Apache Junction, Arizona
Rex, I found a copy of my response still on my computer. I will repost it here..... The most recent Expert opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form their conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I do not understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering: How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration: The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones: A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Did not the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much
Police Officer from Portland, Oregon named Travis Tumlinson. According to the story Tumlinson told, he was passing through Arizona on a trip and pulled off to the side of Hwy 60 east of Apache Junction to take a stretch break, and while walking around stumbled over the corner of one of the stones sticking up out of the dirt. In 1995, Al Reser, a longtime resident of Apache Junction and lost mine hunter, took me to a location on Hwy 60 just west of Florence Junction where he pointed to the spot that a man named Charlie Miller, who had been a close friend of Tumlinson’s brother, told him was the spot where the Stone Maps had been found.
